[linux-dvb] RE : [RFC] Let the future decide between the two.

Markus Rechberger mrechberger at gmail.com
Thu Sep 25 14:19:07 CEST 2008

On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Thierry Lelegard
<thierry.lelegard at tv-numeric.com> wrote:
>> De : linux-dvb-bounces at linuxtv.org
>> [mailto:linux-dvb-bounces at linuxtv.org] De la part de Janne Grunau
>> Envoyé : jeudi 25 septembre 2008 12:48
>> À : linux-dvb at linuxtv.org
>> Objet : Re: [linux-dvb] [RFC] Let the future decide between the two.
>> On Thursday 25 September 2008 08:45:28 Michel Verbraak wrote:
>> [...]
>> > I would like to propose the following:
>> >
>> > - Keep the two different DVB API sets next to one another. Both
>> > having a space on Linuxtv.org to explain their knowledge and how to
>> > use them. - Each with their own respective maintainers to get stuff
>> > into the kernel. I mean V4L had two versions.
>> > - Let driver developers decide which API they will follow. Or even
>> > develop for both.
>> > - Let application developers decide which API they will support.
>> > - Let distribution packagers decide which API they will have
>> > activated by default in their distribution.
>> > - Let the end users decide which one will be used most. (Probably
>> > they will decide on: Is my hardware supported or not).
>> > - If democracy is that strong one of them will win or maybey the two
>> > will get merged and we, the end users, get best of both worlds.
>> >
>> > As the subject says: This is a Request For Comment.
>> This is complete nonsense, distrobution packagers shouldn't
>> decide which
>> API should be used, the API and all drivers should be in the kernel.
>> Having two tree is at best fragmentation and at worst a whole lot of
>> duplicated work.
> Having the two coexisting API is a COMPLETE SOFTWARE DESIGN NONSENSE.
> This would not be a "cathedral to bazaar" transition, as someone wrote
> on the subject, it would be a "bazaat to mess" transition.
> I have no technical opinion on Multiproto vs. S2API since I have been
> using only DVT-T device for the last two years. But I have more than
> 20 years of experience in software design and that would be for sure
> the worst decision ever.
> On a user point of view, Janne's point is the most important one:
>> That should a user do if he has two devices which are only
>> supported by one of the trees? That's bad luck?
> And this is not only a Multiproto vs. S2API issue. As I mentioned,
> I use only DVT-T devices. I have 4 of them, all working on Linux
> for months or years and there is no one single repository supporting
> all of them at the same time. Most are supported by
> http://linuxtv.org/hg/v4l-dvb, another one needs
> http://linuxtv.org/hg/~anttip/af9015 plus other patches.
> And this is not a transitional situation, it lasts for months.
> This is an endemic but unacceptable situation. And, again, this is
> not only Multiproto vs. S2API. IMHO, linux DVB has a real leadership
> problem. There are just too many different forks which could be accepted
> during transition periods (development and validation of a driver)
> but which cannot survive that long.
> All these various trees contains technically good code. So, this
> is not a technical problem. Failing to merge them is a leadership
> problem ("cathedral companies" would say a "management problem").
> Imagine what would be the kernel today with that kind of methods?
> But for the kernel, there is Linus, a leader that you may like or
> not but that everyone respect (and respect the decisions of). The
> situation in Linux DVB is not like that, unfortunately.
> Since Linux DVB is a subsystem of the kernel and since there is
> no undisputed leader in Linux DVB, why not asking for Linus'
> arbitration? He started to get involved AFAIK.

look at the wireless framework, sound framework all went through some evolution.

There are around 18 devices supported by multiproto and a few ones
supported by Stevens proposal.
Steven is pulling against the multiproto path which has been available
for years.

searching google for multiproto dvb returns >40.000 hits

for s2api dvb returns  277 hits
or "s2 api" dvb returns 288 hits


> Currently, all arguments are like:
> - "This API is technically better" (not a technical problem we told you)
> - "Give me technical reasons" (same)
> - "This was voted" (validity of this vote is disputed -> leadership pb)
> - "You don't like me" (personal problems)
> One way to get out of this loop is to call for Linus.
> -Thierry
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