[linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

Tobias Stoeber tobi at to-st.de
Tue Jan 27 16:57:58 CET 2009

Hi all,

BOUWSMA Barry schrieb:
>>... and sorry Barry that I've to correct you on some parts of your
>>summarization ;) I hope you don't mind.
> No worries.  I've tried to give a view that an outsider could
> use to better understand the situation and place a logic onto
> the channel assignments, as it is a bit more detailed than the
> situation in, say, Switzerland.  Or France.

Never been there lately, so I don't know nothing about it. Maybe it's 
just due to the fact, that the grown world of German broadcasting tends 
to be rather complex. ;)

Not to mention radio services, which apart from classical FM (VHF) and 
AM (medium wave, long wave and short wave) do include DAB, radio over 
DVB-T and DVB-S and a lot of experiementing like "HD radio" etc.

>>So what do you mean with local broadcasters? Or what is the difference in
>>regional private versus local?
> Local broadcasters here would include, as examples, HH1, only
> available in the Hamburg region, or perhaps some of what can
> be seen in Leipzig, though that appears not to be included in
> the .pdf file frequency list.  Likewise I'd include the
> different services which can be seen via DVB satellite making
> up FrankenSat and the like -- simply because I'm not familiar
> enough with them and their reach -- I'd assume TRP is available
> in Passau, but not throughout Oberbayern, for example.

Okay, now I got that ;)

> By a region, I mean either a Bundesland, as opposed to those
> which cover just a large city (Berlin, HH, Bremen...) or a
> large part thereof.  For example, RTL has available a service
> for Austria and the german part of Switzerland, and for HH SH
> and HB NDS available via satellite, as does Sat1 with services
> SAT1 National, SAT1 NRW, SAT1 NS/Bremen, SAT1 HH/SH,
> SAT1 RhlPf/Hessen, and for Bayern, Test BY.  (info may be some
> months out-of-date)

Well, Berlin, Hamburg and Bremen are not a good example, because 
actually they are a Bundesland ;) But I got the point, you tried to make.

> Unfortunately, I am not very familiar with the multitude of
> private broadcasters out there and their coverage areas, due
> to receiving satellite signals, which lack most of these.
> Only occasionally will something catch my interest -- for
> example, was tm3 a local München service, which happened to
> be available nationally before it perverted into Neun Live
> and wormed its way into DVB-T multiplexes?  And likewise, the
> service which Hornauer took over before finally sputtering off
> satellite after a shell game into Austria, whose original name
> I can no longer remember...

I doubt, that apart from a handful of people, a simgle person has a 
complete overview and knowledge in regard to every little broadcasting 
station in Germany. Just remember, that there a also a lot of local 
stations that a distributed via cable only. For instance all the 
"Offener Kanal" (citizen tv, may I call it so?) stations.

>>The stations must also be licensed in one of the federal states and are
>>required to broadcast are local/regional programme there(!), which results in
>>the fact, that on DVB-T (and before on analogue TV) there are programmes
>>targeted to the region and which are not available on satellite TV. For RTL in
>>Niedersachen/Bremen there is a programme called "Guten Abend RTL" between
>>18h00 and 18h30, or on Sat.1 there is then a programme called "Sat1 - 17.30
>>live NDS/Bremen" between 17h30 and 18h00.
> Actually, these services are now available nationally (and through
> europe) via DVB-S.  Earlier, these were sent at least in part via
> low-bandwidth transponders in the style of SNG feeds; today they
> make use of dynamic PMT switching within a full-bandwidth 
> multiplex, in the same way that WDR in particular switches to its
> many regions for part of the day.

Oh, thanks for the information (and correction). As I am not longer able 
to use satellite / DVB-S, I've lost track on the developments there.

> If I remember, there is also an occasional multiplex in, if I
> remember, Nürnberg...  I do need to look more in detail at these
> projects.

Would be interting, if you find out any information. As I've searched 
for a detailed list, I've come across:


which has a very uptodate and detailed listing, which I checked for 
Leipzig (including the SLM city multiplex!):


These listing contain a lot of technical information (I was really 
amazed how detailed).

> What I do notice is that in the frequency list, Leipzig includes
> only the three PSB multiplexes, including one on VHF channel 9,
> which eventually should be moved, I would expect.

I would not expect, that this VHF Ch 9 will change in the next months. 
No news about that.

That only the 3 PSB multiplexes are listed may be due to the fact, that 
die technical provider for the "Leipzig 1" mux is not Media Broadcast 
GmbH (former T-Systems Media&Broadcast GmbH (M&B), now part of TDF from 
France ... has sort of a monopol on DVB-T in Germany) but MUGLER AG.

The network uses exsiting buildings / infrastructure, low power 
transmitters and rotating field antennas (which is quite unique for 
DVB-T in Germany, a least the website says so).

>>Not correct, the ARD-Das Erste multiplex does NOT contain regional ("third")
>>programmes! There is always a seperate multiplex for the "third" programmes.
> I hate to disagree, but Brandenburg appears to mix rbb-Brandenburg
> with ARD, with the `dritte' multiplex containing `arte'; this is
> also the same for Berlin and rbb-Berlin -- I'm not sure if the PMT
> switching is used here to make the Brandenburg and Berlin local
> programming available through the entire area for the few hours
> per day when they differ.

Okay. Thanks for the advice. I am wrong on that and you are right. 
Thanks also to Herrmann ;)

I need to do some homework too, it seems so. :(

> I think my point was to try to say that one nationally-available
> multiplex carries the same programming.  The (usually) two other
> public multiplexes do not, when seen from a national perspective.
> (The ARD multiplex in, say, Hamburg, is not the same as the mux
> in Baden-Württemberg (EinsExtra v. EinsPlus) or Hessen (where hr
> is included.)  However, while one of these multiplexes is the
> same throughout all sites in Hessen, the third multiplex in the
> case of Hessen exists in four slightly differing flavours.
> In Baden-Württemberg, all three multiplexes do carry the same
> content throughout the entire Bundesland, but this general
> observation does not always carry over to other regions.

Due to the federal structure of the broadcasting system which one 
public-law broadcaster and a "Landesmedienanstalt" in the lead, there 
will obviously never be a nationwide identical strucure. At least I 
think so.

>>See first part. A part from sat reception there is also a widespread coverage
>>with cable.
> How extensive is the penetration of cable?  My experience is
> that at least in some areas, apart from larger towns, many
> places have no access to cable.  This is in contrast with, say,
> Switzerland, where cable is available in what superficially
> appear to be sleepy farming villages and is in fact the most
> highly-used means of distribution.
> These same areas are also out of range of the Telekom DSL
> service, so with no cable, and no easy high-speed internet
> in communities of thousands, one wonders how people live...

Well, I think that a lot of metropolitan and also small city areas (down 
to 10.000 inhabitants) do have access, at least in part, to cable tv & 

Former Bundespost invested heavily in such infrastructure in the 80ies 
and 90ies, which does also mean, that some parts of it may be 
technically not very uptodate. As Telekom had to sell (at least a large 
part of?) that business, it is now divided into a few big and a lot more 
smaller companies.

You could do some research on the respective websites, say

Kabel Deutschland



Even a city like Tröglitz (some relatives of me live there, 2816 
inhabitants according to Wikipedia) has access to cable.

>>Well, the only I can do is, offering you my help on the areas that I live and
> Much appreciated.  I used to travel a lot more, but that was
> before getting old and taking an interest in digital broadcast
> distribution.  I tend to focus more on the technical side, and
> have less interest in politics and the like, as you could
> clearly see from how badly I botched the description I tried
> to give.

So then I'll try to do some research and "verification" ... sometimes it 
is enough to read the local news ;)

Regards, Tobias

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