Gregoire Favre gregoire.favre@gmail.com wrote:

Don't know with softdevice but with xine it has always worked perfectly here. What I would like is to try the non mpeg2 ones...

You mean - the MP4 / H.264 stuff? I read some of your posts in http://www.vdr-portal.de/board/thread.php?threadid=34722&sid=1bdb4063224... but since then nothing seems to have progressed much. (this is you, no? )

aren't they transmitting DVB-S2 already while no receiver hardware is available yet?

... before they aren't FTA anymore :)

Good grief...

Hi guys,

I don't think any of the HDTV channels is going to be in MPEG2. As it seems, everyone agrees on MPEG4 / H.264 over DVB-S2. Time to get new hardware :-(

Well, its not just going to be a matter of buying new DVB hardware, I'm afraid.

AFAIK, STMicroelectronics is the >only< company making the (De)Mod (=Tuner) at the moment. Zarlink is working on one, but it's not in production as of now. Knc1 is the only maker of DVB-S PC hardware. This card does NOT have a HDMI output (and it's a budget card). This means any HDCP coded and protected programs will not be outputed to a TV. HDCP will most likely NEVER reach a software controlled stage. It will always be hardcoded into the hardware. The knc1 card is due out end of January 2006. Price unknown.

And as to transcoding the digítal stream into RGBHV, I personally don't think this will ever happen with internal PC hardware. The crowd of people having an 8" or 9" CRT projection unit is too small as to let manufacturers whip up an internal transcoder. More expensive digitals are HD-compliant, but not really HD-Ready (not meaning what the sign "HD-Ready" tries to imply!)

Furthermore programs like Premiere will be using another method of checking, making watching such shows via VDR next to impossible. Not that I care, since DVDs are easily catching up (production times) to Premiere. Of course, you'll also need a new CAM and a new CI to go with the higher rates of H.264.

I also doubt that we will be able to cut these shows via VDR (although I'm sure Klaus has something up his sleeves ;o)) since it is no longer mpeg2. We are also at the mercy of the DVB-S2 producers to lay open a code that will allow the implementation of a DVB-S2 card under Linux. It'll be a long way before VDR meets HDTV in H.264. Since BW costs money, you can be sure that, aside from the demo loops now on Astra, all shows will be encoded in H.264 ;o(

Since there are NO full featured cards available at the moment, there is presently NO way you can watch H.264 encoded shows via old PII-200 Mhz hardware.

I never really understood manufacturers why they speed up the process of transmitting data in a new and higher encoded way, yet fail to provide the receiving hardware. Pretty stupid in my opinion :o))

regards, Reinhard

Hi Harald, guys,

...

HDCP coded and protected programs will not be outputed to a TV. HDCP will most likely NEVER reach a software controlled stage. It will always be hardcoded into the

You'll always need a HDCP compliant graphics card that outputs the data stream to a "HD ready" TV set as-is. No software stage inbetween, especially no recording or decoding. For now, that is. Has anyone

Exactly, which makes an integration into VDR impossible. For now I don't see how they will (try to) protect data going across the PCI bus so that you can't get at it with a HDD. This means it will never receive HDCP compliance. The only way to prevent this would be to prevent the data being fed over the PCI, which essentially means outputting the data via the DVB-S card directly (of course then any kind of PVR doesn't make sense ;o)) Even after so many years, VDR is still the top notch software when it comes to PVR.

except the Spatz folks tried to get HDCP capable DVI chips (SiI 1169) from Silicon Image?

Thanks for the link. I hadn't noticed this one yet. There is a nice slot-in card out there for my Marquee that, cough, cough, doesn't really care about HDCP ;o))

Or do they (officially) sell only to people with a valid HDCP license?

I would guess a lot of manufacturers are still holding off to wait the outcome of Blue-Ray vs HD-DVD. Esp. when it comes to the problem of the activation keys.

...

hardware. The knc1 card is due out end of January 2006. Price unknown.

This one ... http://www.knc1.com/d/produkte/digital_dvb_s2_plus.htm

Yes, that is the one I meant.

Their web page says "H.264/MPEG2 decoding in software", and "Intel kompatible CPU ab 2 GHz (ab 3.2 GHz Dual Core für HDTV)". No comment.

ROFL. Of course this includes the Windows overhead, but even in Linux we won't get away with a say 1GHz CPU. Basically that is what I meant with my comment that it's not enough just to buy new DVB-S2 hardware.

The only way we could use this in a slow PC is with a EM-8620L card (randy?), the HDCP issue set aside for a while.

Probably Sigma's next gen cards will be able to handle this including HDCP, but Sigma has always been a little strange when it comes to open source. Just look at how long it took manufacturers to come up with "high definition" DVD players based on the Sigma chip. AFAIK there are only 3 (not taking KISS into account since it still not clear if they will be making one) manufactuers selling these. The Zensonic Z500 being my personal favorite at the moment.

...

are HD-compliant, but not really HD-Ready (not meaning what the sign "HD-Ready" tries to imply!)

fake "HD ready" logo, meaning just something. These customers will have a nice June and July, I guess, when they notice that they had themselves talk into buying something that is basically useless.

Yup. I think manufacturers are hoping for an "up" in sales due to the supposed raise in sales tax (got my own thoughts about how our great politicians are gonna dismiss this) and due to the World Championships. The net result will be that people will become MUCH less willing to buy consumer stuff after this experience with HD(TV).

The way manufacturers, media and politicians are going, HDTV is going to be a dead birth. It wouldn't surprise me if they start sending most HDTV via DVB-T in the beginning, since it essentially is less expensive then via satellite. Problem being (same as via) cable that up to now not everyone can receive DVB-T because of the missing infrastructure.

...

I also doubt that we will be able to cut these shows via VDR

If they send pay-TV contents that needs to be cut, then to hell with them.

I was talking more in the lines of (still) FTA from Sat.1 or Pro-7.

...

DVB-S2 producers to lay open a code that will allow the implementation of a DVB-S2 card under Linux. It'll be a

Anybody talking to KNC ? ;-)

Not to my knowledge. @Klaus: Do you have any new infos on DVB-S2?

Regards, Reinhard

Reinhard Walter Buchner rw.buchner@freenet.de wrote:

Exactly, which makes an integration into VDR impossible. For now I don't see how they will (try to) protect data going across the PCI bus so that you can't get at it with a HDD. This means it will never receive HDCP compliance. The only way to prevent this would be to prevent the data being fed over the PCI, which essentially means outputting the data via the DVB-S card directly (of course

Yup. I was somewhat off-track here. To re-cap this:

The data coming from the satellite is not HDCP encrypted. HDCP is meant to provide an end-to-end encryption between, say, a set-top-box and the display in order to make DVI recorders impossible. The KNC card does (must) provide an unencrypted data stream on the PCI bus once the CI stuff has been dealt with.

Or the card together with the supplied Windows software is next to useless when it comes to pay-TV content. Same with set top boxes - they need to insert their OSD stuff at some point.

If that is so (please correct me if I'm totally off now), there is no way to prevent VDR from doing its job.

HDCP compliance is something I can get along without if required ...

So - as soon as there are DVB drivers for any DVB-S2 card, the hurdle is CI, not HDCP.

I was talking more in the lines of (still) FTA from Sat.1 or Pro-7.

I guess after a year or so there's little incentive to record anything from the Pro7 or RTL guys any more because 90% of the program(me) is replays. Hence the brilliant "Das Vierte" idea. There VDR can get a real repetitive stress syndrome. The new stuff isn't actually worth it, IMHO. Considering that even recent movies are available on DVD (and in DVD rental shops) very quickly (at least for a while because otherwise the movie industry would piss off many, many DVD player owners worldwide), getting the DVDs would be a way to go (as a legal alternative to a broadband DSL account).

Udo Richter udo_richter@gmx.de wrote:

But thats all pure theory until S2 cards get actually available.

And as long as our own systems are known for having a TCPA chip or not. :-)