Hi,
I switched recently to vdr 1.5 series and noticed an annoying feature/ bug with DVB subtitles that was not present in vdr 1.4 series using subtitles plugin.
The problem is that the subtitles for hearing impaired people are shown when watching recorded show. They are not shown if I watch the same program as direct broadcast. Isn't there any way (except completely disable subtitles) disable hearing impaired subtitles?
I'm curently using 1.5.17 version with ttxtsubs and liemikuutio patches. My language selection in DVB setup menu is "suomi" (finnish) for both Audio and Subtitle language.
Cheers, Kimmo
On 03/04/08 19:55, Kimmo Taskinen wrote:
Hi,
I switched recently to vdr 1.5 series and noticed an annoying feature/ bug with DVB subtitles that was not present in vdr 1.4 series using subtitles plugin.
The problem is that the subtitles for hearing impaired people are shown when watching recorded show. They are not shown if I watch the same program as direct broadcast. Isn't there any way (except completely disable subtitles) disable hearing impaired subtitles?
I find it strange that it would behave differently in live and replay mode.
I'm curently using 1.5.17 version with ttxtsubs and liemikuutio patches. My language selection in DVB setup menu is "suomi" (finnish) for both Audio and Subtitle language.
Does it also happen without these patches (and any other patches, for that matter)?
Klaus
Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
On 03/04/08 19:55, Kimmo Taskinen wrote:
Hi,
I switched recently to vdr 1.5 series and noticed an annoying feature/ bug with DVB subtitles that was not present in vdr 1.4 series using subtitles plugin.
The problem is that the subtitles for hearing impaired people are shown when watching recorded show. They are not shown if I watch the same program as direct broadcast. Isn't there any way (except completely disable subtitles) disable hearing impaired subtitles?
I find it strange that it would behave differently in live and replay mode.
I'm curently using 1.5.17 version with ttxtsubs and liemikuutio patches. My language selection in DVB setup menu is "suomi" (finnish) for both Audio and Subtitle language.
Does it also happen without these patches (and any other patches, for that matter)?
Klaus
Hi Klaus,
I have uploaded a small sample of such a recording which shows the subtitles when replayed, but not on a live view. You can download it here: http://rapidshare.de/files/38744369/hoh_subtitles.tar.html
It was made with a patched (liemikuutio + ttxtsubs) 1.5.15, but it might give you a glue of the problem.
-Petri
On 03/04/08 21:17, Petri Helin wrote:
Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
On 03/04/08 19:55, Kimmo Taskinen wrote:
Hi,
I switched recently to vdr 1.5 series and noticed an annoying feature/ bug with DVB subtitles that was not present in vdr 1.4 series using subtitles plugin.
The problem is that the subtitles for hearing impaired people are shown when watching recorded show. They are not shown if I watch the same program as direct broadcast. Isn't there any way (except completely disable subtitles) disable hearing impaired subtitles?
I find it strange that it would behave differently in live and replay mode.
I'm curently using 1.5.17 version with ttxtsubs and liemikuutio patches. My language selection in DVB setup menu is "suomi" (finnish) for both Audio and Subtitle language.
Does it also happen without these patches (and any other patches, for that matter)?
Klaus
Hi Klaus,
I have uploaded a small sample of such a recording which shows the subtitles when replayed, but not on a live view. You can download it here: http://rapidshare.de/files/38744369/hoh_subtitles.tar.html
It was made with a patched (liemikuutio + ttxtsubs) 1.5.15, but it might give you a glue of the problem.
-Petri
The info.vdr file contains
X 3 11 fin X 2 03 fin X 3 03 dut
which indicates that audio is in Finnish, and there are two subtitle tracks. The one with type 03 looks like any other subtitle track I've seen so far, like
X 3 03 rus X 3 03 dan X 3 03 ger
in a "La Crim" broadcast on French tv. According to the specs this is "VBI data".
The one with type 11 is "DVB subtitles (normal) for display on 4:3 aspect ratio monitor".
None of these two is specified as "for the hard of hearing".
From what I was able to see in the clip you provided, the "dut" track is there
from the very beginning (don't know if it actually contains Dutch texts, though - my guess would have been it is Finnish), and the "fin" track only appears when the woman speaks English.
Since the 03 subtitles seem to be the same as what the narrator is saying (which apparently is Finnish), it looks like the track description is wrong to begin with, and the "dut" track is actually "Finnish for the hard of hearing".
If subtitles are enabled, VDR tries to display the best match as defined in the setup. However, if no best match can be found, it displays the first one that arrives.
Maybe this is what's causing the problems here. While this makes sense for audio, it might not be that useful for subtitles. I guess some change in cDevice::EnsureSubtitleTrack() needs to be done to fix this.
However, there still would be the problem that VDR couldn't even tell that the "dut" track is "for the hard of hearing", because it is not properly marked.
Or am I missing something here?
Klaus
On Friday, 7. Marchta 2008 00:37:06 Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
The info.vdr file contains
X 3 11 fin X 2 03 fin X 3 03 dut
which indicates that audio is in Finnish, and there are two subtitle tracks. The one with type 03 looks like any other subtitle track I've seen so far, like
That dut track is "subtitle in sound".. And that way it should be sound track and not subtitle. It's special. It's sound track where computer is reading subtitles in lound, for those who cannot read. Only YLE use those.
On 03/07/08 06:21, JJussi wrote:
On Friday, 7. Marchta 2008 00:37:06 Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
The info.vdr file contains
X 3 11 fin X 2 03 fin X 3 03 dut
which indicates that audio is in Finnish, and there are two subtitle tracks. The one with type 03 looks like any other subtitle track I've seen so far, like
That dut track is "subtitle in sound".. And that way it should be sound track and not subtitle. It's special. It's sound track where computer is reading subtitles in lound, for those who cannot read. Only YLE use those.
But that track contains plain old DVB subtitle bitmaps. How can a computer read them out loud?
Klaus
Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
On 03/07/08 06:21, JJussi wrote:
On Friday, 7. Marchta 2008 00:37:06 Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
The info.vdr file contains
X 3 11 fin X 2 03 fin X 3 03 dut
which indicates that audio is in Finnish, and there are two subtitle tracks. The one with type 03 looks like any other subtitle track I've seen so far, like
That dut track is "subtitle in sound".. And that way it should be sound track and not subtitle. It's special. It's sound track where computer is reading subtitles in lound, for those who cannot read. Only YLE use those.
But that track contains plain old DVB subtitle bitmaps. How can a computer read them out loud?
I believe JJussi is mixing things up a bit. What he describes is audio subtitling, which YLE has chosen to send labelled as a Dutch audio track. It seems that they have started to use Dutch also for Finnish subtitling for Finnish spoken programs. The reason for that choice I believe is the absence of Dutch language in Finland and hopefully not the misconception of all the Dutch being hearing impaired... :)
The instructions for people who want to use the audio subtitling is that they should choose Dutch as the primary audio language and Finnish as the secondary. Obviously they had the same in mind for DVB subtitles.
-Petri
On 03/07/08 17:26, Petri Helin wrote:
Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
On 03/07/08 06:21, JJussi wrote:
On Friday, 7. Marchta 2008 00:37:06 Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
The info.vdr file contains
X 3 11 fin X 2 03 fin X 3 03 dut
which indicates that audio is in Finnish, and there are two subtitle tracks. The one with type 03 looks like any other subtitle track I've seen so far, like
That dut track is "subtitle in sound".. And that way it should be sound track and not subtitle. It's special. It's sound track where computer is reading subtitles in lound, for those who cannot read. Only YLE use those.
But that track contains plain old DVB subtitle bitmaps. How can a computer read them out loud?
I believe JJussi is mixing things up a bit. What he describes is audio subtitling, which YLE has chosen to send labelled as a Dutch audio track. It seems that they have started to use Dutch also for Finnish subtitling for Finnish spoken programs. The reason for that choice I believe is the absence of Dutch language in Finland and hopefully not the misconception of all the Dutch being hearing impaired... :)
The instructions for people who want to use the audio subtitling is that they should choose Dutch as the primary audio language and Finnish as the secondary. Obviously they had the same in mind for DVB subtitles.
Broadcasters - gotta lov'em...
Klaus
Maybe slightly off topic, but plain cable digital receiver Topfield TF6000COC seems to get confused as well with this DUT-setting. Sometimes these subtitles gets activated by itself allthough not preselected.
This "activation by itself" is fairly new "feature", because receiver has been working flawless a long time so I guess recent changes have happened in broadcaster's side (no updates on receiver end done recently)?
Markku
Petri Helin kirjoitti:
Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
On 03/07/08 06:21, JJussi wrote:
On Friday, 7. Marchta 2008 00:37:06 Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
The info.vdr file contains
X 3 11 fin X 2 03 fin X 3 03 dut
which indicates that audio is in Finnish, and there are two subtitle tracks. The one with type 03 looks like any other subtitle track I've seen so far, like
That dut track is "subtitle in sound".. And that way it should be sound track and not subtitle. It's special. It's sound track where computer is reading subtitles in lound, for those who cannot read.
Only YLE use those.
But that track contains plain old DVB subtitle bitmaps. How can a computer read them out loud?
I believe JJussi is mixing things up a bit. What he describes is audio subtitling, which YLE has chosen to send labelled as a Dutch audio track. It seems that they have started to use Dutch also for Finnish subtitling for Finnish spoken programs. The reason for that choice I believe is the absence of Dutch language in Finland and hopefully not the misconception of all the Dutch being hearing impaired... :)
The instructions for people who want to use the audio subtitling is that they should choose Dutch as the primary audio language and Finnish as the secondary. Obviously they had the same in mind for DVB subtitles.
-Petri
vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
I believe JJussi is mixing things up a bit. What he describes is audio subtitling, which YLE has chosen to send labelled as a Dutch audio track. It seems that they have started to use Dutch also for Finnish subtitling for Finnish spoken programs.
They would have selected some African language :)
Now if you use DVB-S and DVB-C|T and in satellite you might hear dutch audio instead of English.
But anyhow, in Finland we don't use voice actors to dub broadcast, we use single monotone single gender lousy el-cheapo speech synth to do it.. And he's a dutch :)
jori.hamalainen@teliasonera.com wrote:
I believe JJussi is mixing things up a bit. What he describes is audio subtitling, which YLE has chosen to send labelled as a Dutch audio track. It seems that they have started to use Dutch also for Finnish subtitling for Finnish spoken programs.
They would have selected some African language :)
... that are not selectable in many boxes, I think :)
On Thu, 6 Mar 2008, Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
From what I was able to see in the clip you provided, the "dut" track is there from the very beginning (don't know if it actually contains Dutch texts, though - my guess would have been it is Finnish), and the "fin" track only appears when the woman speaks English.
For some unknown reason the Dutch language description is used in Finland for hard of hearing purpose. For example some events have "audio subtitles", where a synthetizator speaks out the finnish subtitles. It seems that "dut" is also used with subtitles...
If subtitles are enabled, VDR tries to display the best match as defined in the setup. However, if no best match can be found, it displays the first one that arrives.
Well, this might be fine for audio, but with subtitles I'd shown them only if a preferred track is found.
BR, -- rofa
Klaus Schmidinger kirjoitti:
However, there still would be the problem that VDR couldn't even tell that the "dut" track is "for the hard of hearing", because it is not properly marked.
Or am I missing something here?
I think you are right - YLE uses "dut" for a synonym of "hearing impaired". Go figure.
yours, Jouni
On 03/07/08 11:07, Jouni Karvo wrote:
Klaus Schmidinger kirjoitti:
However, there still would be the problem that VDR couldn't even tell that the "dut" track is "for the hard of hearing", because it is not properly marked.
Or am I missing something here?
I think you are right - YLE uses "dut" for a synonym of "hearing impaired". Go figure.
Isn't this offensive towards the Dutch people? Or do the Finnish think that all Dutch people are hearing impaired? ;-)
Klaus
On Thu, 6 Mar 2008, Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
None of these two is specified as "for the hard of hearing".
Well, as Jouni already told, the Dutch is used here on YLE channels for hard of hearing purposes. :)
Maybe this is what's causing the problems here. While this makes sense for audio, it might not be that useful for subtitles. I guess some change in cDevice::EnsureSubtitleTrack() needs to be done to fix this.
I guess this kind of small change would be enough. IMO, the subtitles should be shown only if a preferred language matches.
--- device.c.orig 2008-03-07 13:18:09.000000000 +0200 +++ device.c 2008-03-07 13:18:49.000000000 +0200 @@ -1096,7 +1096,7 @@ void cDevice::EnsureSubtitleTrack(void) { if (Setup.DisplaySubtitles) { - eTrackType PreferredTrack = ttSubtitleFirst; + eTrackType PreferredTrack = ttNone; int LanguagePreference = -1; for (int i = ttSubtitleFirst; i <= ttSubtitleLast; i++) { const tTrackId *TrackId = GetTrack(eTrackType(i));
BR, -- rofa
On 03/07/08 12:26, Rolf Ahrenberg wrote:
On Thu, 6 Mar 2008, Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
None of these two is specified as "for the hard of hearing".
Well, as Jouni already told, the Dutch is used here on YLE channels for hard of hearing purposes. :)
Maybe this is what's causing the problems here. While this makes sense for audio, it might not be that useful for subtitles. I guess some change in cDevice::EnsureSubtitleTrack() needs to be done to fix this.
I guess this kind of small change would be enough. IMO, the subtitles should be shown only if a preferred language matches.
--- device.c.orig 2008-03-07 13:18:09.000000000 +0200 +++ device.c 2008-03-07 13:18:49.000000000 +0200 @@ -1096,7 +1096,7 @@ void cDevice::EnsureSubtitleTrack(void) { if (Setup.DisplaySubtitles) {
eTrackType PreferredTrack = ttSubtitleFirst;
eTrackType PreferredTrack = ttNone; int LanguagePreference = -1; for (int i = ttSubtitleFirst; i <= ttSubtitleLast; i++) { const tTrackId *TrackId = GetTrack(eTrackType(i));
Actually I believe we also need to initialize LanguagePreference to a "high value". The full patch I'll add for version 1.6.0 is this:
--- device.c 2008/02/23 13:09:01 1.155 +++ device.c 2008/03/07 15:26:23 @@ -1096,8 +1096,8 @@ void cDevice::EnsureSubtitleTrack(void) { if (Setup.DisplaySubtitles) { - eTrackType PreferredTrack = ttSubtitleFirst; - int LanguagePreference = -1; + eTrackType PreferredTrack = ttNone; + int LanguagePreference = INT_MAX; // higher than the maximum possible value for (int i = ttSubtitleFirst; i <= ttSubtitleLast; i++) { const tTrackId *TrackId = GetTrack(eTrackType(i)); if (TrackId && TrackId->id && I18nIsPreferredLanguage(Setup.SubtitleLanguages, TrackId->language, LanguagePreference))
With this, if I set the preferred subtitle language to Finnish (suomi), Petri's example works as expected: the narrator is not subtitled, while the woman is.
Please verify and let me know if this works for you, too - and doesn't break anything else.
Klaus
On 04 Mar 2008, at 21:17, Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
On 03/04/08 19:55, Kimmo Taskinen wrote:
Hi,
I switched recently to vdr 1.5 series and noticed an annoying feature/ bug with DVB subtitles that was not present in vdr 1.4 series using subtitles plugin.
The problem is that the subtitles for hearing impaired people are shown when watching recorded show. They are not shown if I watch the same program as direct broadcast. Isn't there any way (except completely disable subtitles) disable hearing impaired subtitles?
I find it strange that it would behave differently in live and replay mode.
I'm curently using 1.5.17 version with ttxtsubs and liemikuutio patches. My language selection in DVB setup menu is "suomi" (finnish) for both Audio and Subtitle language.
Does it also happen without these patches (and any other patches, for that matter)?
I tested 1.5.17 without any patches and only plugin I used was xineliboutput. I was lucky to get REALLY suitable program for testing from finnish YLE FST channel. There was a talk show where they talked in finnish and swedish. The difference between live mode and replay mode was interesting: Live mode: - talk in finnish: no subtitles - talk in swedish: finnish subtitles Replay mode: case 1 (when start from a moment there is finnish talk) - talk in finnish: swedish subtiles - talk in swedish: no subtitles OR case 2 (when start from a moment there is swedish talk) - talk in swedish: finnish subtitles - talk in finnish: swedish subtiles - talk in swedish: no subtiles anymore after finnish dialog
I hope you understand.
Another program (danish speaking series) from same channel. In live mode I got finnish subtitle and in replay mode subtitles were in swedish.
So t seems that live mode is OK but replay mode behaves really strange.
Language setup in DVB menu was still the same, "suomi" (finnish) for Audio and Subtitle (only one language).
I can send you a sort clip if it would help you.
- Kimmo
Klaus
vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
On 04 Mar 2008, at 22:21, Kimmo Taskinen wrote:
Another program (danish speaking series) from same channel. In live mode I got finnish subtitle and in replay mode subtitles were in swedish.
This case is not repeatable. As I now checked this recording the subtitles were in finnish. Problem occurred twice yesterday during recording.
Klaus,
I have sample for the problem explained below. Do you want/need it? It is unfortunately 68M and I don't know where to put it.
Cheers, Kimmo
On 04 Mar 2008, at 22:21, Kimmo Taskinen wrote:
I tested 1.5.17 without any patches and only plugin I used was xineliboutput. I was lucky to get REALLY suitable program for testing from finnish YLE FST channel. There was a talk show where they talked in finnish and swedish. The difference between live mode and replay mode was interesting: Live mode:
- talk in finnish: no subtitles
- talk in swedish: finnish subtitles
Replay mode: case 1 (replay started from a moment there is finnish talk)
- talk in finnish: swedish subtiles
- talk in swedish: no subtitles
OR case 2 (replay started from a moment there is swedish talk)
- talk in swedish: finnish subtitles
- talk in finnish: swedish subtiles
- talk in swedish: no subtiles anymore after finnish dialog, if
replay is started from this dialog there is finnish subtitles
On Thursday, 6. Marchta 2008 07:58:49 Kimmo Taskinen wrote:
Klaus,
I have sample for the problem explained below. Do you want/need it? It is unfortunately 68M and I don't know where to put it.
Cheers, Kimmo
Can you use vdr's cut feature and cut it to much shorter.. I gues that 30 second (or less) would be enought to "debug". Then it's not that problematic to store or attach..
On 03/06/08 06:58, Kimmo Taskinen wrote:
Klaus,
I have sample for the problem explained below. Do you want/need it? It is unfortunately 68M and I don't know where to put it.
For starters, can you please just post the info.vdr file of this recording?
Klaus
On 04 Mar 2008, at 22:21, Kimmo Taskinen wrote:
I tested 1.5.17 without any patches and only plugin I used was xineliboutput. I was lucky to get REALLY suitable program for testing from finnish YLE FST channel. There was a talk show where they talked in finnish and swedish. The difference between live mode and replay mode was interesting: Live mode:
- talk in finnish: no subtitles
- talk in swedish: finnish subtitles
Replay mode: case 1 (replay started from a moment there is finnish talk)
- talk in finnish: swedish subtiles
- talk in swedish: no subtitles
OR case 2 (replay started from a moment there is swedish talk)
- talk in swedish: finnish subtitles
- talk in finnish: swedish subtiles
- talk in swedish: no subtiles anymore after finnish dialog, if
replay is started from this dialog there is finnish subtitles
On 03/06/08 06:58, Kimmo Taskinen wrote:
Klaus,
I have sample for the problem explained below. Do you want/need it? It is unfortunately 68M and I don't know where to put it.
Please try the patch I just posted in this thread.
Klaus
On 04 Mar 2008, at 22:21, Kimmo Taskinen wrote:
I tested 1.5.17 without any patches and only plugin I used was xineliboutput. I was lucky to get REALLY suitable program for testing from finnish YLE FST channel. There was a talk show where they talked in finnish and swedish. The difference between live mode and replay mode was interesting: Live mode:
- talk in finnish: no subtitles
- talk in swedish: finnish subtitles
Replay mode: case 1 (replay started from a moment there is finnish talk)
- talk in finnish: swedish subtiles
- talk in swedish: no subtitles
OR case 2 (replay started from a moment there is swedish talk)
- talk in swedish: finnish subtitles
- talk in finnish: swedish subtiles
- talk in swedish: no subtiles anymore after finnish dialog, if
replay is started from this dialog there is finnish subtitles
-
Anssi Hannula -
JJussi -
jori.hamalainen＠teliasonera.com -
Jouni Karvo -
Kimmo Taskinen -
Klaus Schmidinger -
Markku Virtanen -
Pertti Kosunen -
Petri Helin -
Rolf Ahrenberg