On 01.01.2017 13:57, fnu wrote:

Hi Klaus,

well, you're right it's a hack, but IMHO not really an ugly one. A similar function is up today part of some premium products from Loewe or Metz, bonding two DVB-S/S2 tuners.

Originally it was limited to two devices, what really can make sense. I have never seen any reason to make that bonding available almost unlimited. For me it doesn't make sense to tie more than two adapters onto same ZF level.

Well, whether it's two or more devices doesn't really make a big difference when it comes to the code complexity.

And you're right, today seems with SCR (EN50494 & EN50607) or SAT>IP more elegant solutions available.

Absolutely.

But, it would be cool to keep it for that specific two DVB-S/S2 tuner setup, if possible. There might be people out there, having just one SAT cable in their apartment and not the possibility to change the that. They would keep their chance to run "1,5 DVB-S/S2" adapters with VDR ...

So I take it you yourself are *not* using this feature, right?

Klaus

There's no point in worrying about what-if scenarios, actual real world usage is what matters. Klaus is giving those who use device bonding the chance to speak up now. If there's very little-to-no interest in it, it's gone. Unless I've misunderstood the intention here. If there rally is someone out there who only has 1 cable and for some reason can't run more, I'd like to know why they don't just use a switch. Simple, cheap, easy, and no complex code required.

-Derek

they do in vdr-portal.de ... as I already do remember a bunch of users still using that function and the reasons why, so no what-if-scenarios.

Not sure why you didn't mention that earlier but aside of that it still doesn't answer this part: "I'd like to know why they don't just use a switch. Simple, cheap, easy, and no complex code required."

One of the main purposes of a switch is to feed multiple tuners from a single cable so it's not like device bonding is a vital feature. The pros don't seem to outweigh the cons but if enough people actually use it it sounds like Klaus will take it into consideration.

-Derek

pretty simple, there are users who cannot change their SAT infrastructure easily. The reasons are varied, e.g. they are tenants and not allowed to change it by the owners, they own it and cannot change it due to the rules of commonhold association or the own it and the construction of apartment/house doesn't allow changes etc.

Are you saying people are not allowed to put a switch at the point where the cable plugins into their dvb device? It would be no different that putting an ethernet switch on your ethernet line. You don't need to alter anything aside of instead of the cable going into your dvb card, it goes into your switch. 100% internal, 100% your own hardware.

-Derek

Andreas: As I said, no "magic" or "luck" is needed. Apparently you've never heard of bandstacking. In the case of DVB-S, it's where one side is carried in 950-1450Mhz and the other is carried in 1650-2150Mhz - full circular lnb on ..one..single..cable,..no..magic. Bandstacking doesn't use voltage switching, instead it simply operates at 18v. Power is supplied either by the tuner or by a powered switch (if present). It's not new and very commonly used here in NA/SA so whatever looking into this subject you did, you didn't look very hard. It's reasonable that you may live in some old crappy apartment with a horrible setup where you truly are without options. You'll have a hard time finding such a building here however. For that matter, most apartments have no problem with tenants setting up dishes of their own with few restrictions.

fnu: I'm talking about reality - equipment that is common here and I have used myself. Using bandstacking, yes, one coax is all you need for an entire satellite. The only requirement is that the coax is rated up to 2150Mhz (ie: RG6). Bandstacking needs to be supports at the lnb (about $5-7) and the switch (from around $20-$80, depending). This equipment is common and has been used for many years here. That being the case, I would be very surprised if the same wasn't true for Europeans... Apparently though it's not since you guys are referring to this as "magic" and not `reality`.

-Derek

Derek,

you're right it's maybe possible to stack channels somewhat, but not on the user end of the "one cable". It must be "stacked" on the other end of the "one cable" and splitted again on the user side of that cable. And here's the problem, there are VDR users out there they cannot change the hardware on the other end, either not allowed or technically not possible. See my other message for the varied reasons ...

As Andreas said we need to deal here with 4 sync levels on the European Astra satellites, to cover every all channels, horizontal-high, horizontal-low, vertical-high, vertical-low. So, any multiswitch does need 4 input cables from LNB, one for each level, to deliver every channel. The Multiswitch can then be a model working along CENELEC EN50494/EN50607, SCR/CSS, what does deliver multiple user bands over one cable and than splitted on user side.

fnu

Andreas/fnu: I didn't realize it varied that much from NA/SA/JP vs. EU but I guess so! Out of curiosity, whats the ballpark average bitrate of your non-sports 1080p content?

For those using device bonding, per Klaus's latest post it will live to see another day in the VDR core. I did, I think (my translator is horrible), see someone asking @ vdr-portal if it could be put into a plugin. If so, does that make sense for this kind of feature?

-Derek

Out of curiosity, whats the ballpark average bitrate of your non-sports 1080p content?

Following the European Broadcasting Union (EBU) guidelines there's no 1080p broadcast in Europe and will most propably not happen. The HD formats in Europe are 1280x720p50, 1440x1080i25 and 1920x1080i25. The majority of the european public service broadcasting institutions are using 720p50. The privat broadcasting stations are using one of the 1080i25 formats, a majority 1920x1080i25. Bitrate on the 720p50 channels is up to 16Mbit/s but rarely below 10Mbit/s. The range for the private 1080i25 channels is much wider, from real bad 8Mbit/s up to 20Mbit/s on some sports channels.

Thanks to Nvidias VDPAU capabilities there's no difference watching 720p or 1080i, even 576i looks like HD.

=> https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/techreports/tr005.pdf

Stations & industries are working on 4k broadcasting, means 3840 × 2160i/p.

fnu

Hi Derek,

Am 02.01.2017 um 01:46 schrieb VDR User:

...

I would like to know which magic switch behind a single cable receiving only one polarization/band allows feeding multiple tuners with independent signals. ;-)

There is no "magic", you probably should read up on switches I guess.

I did and all satellite switches I know need 4 individual inputs, each providing one combination of polarization and band. So good look using a switch behind a single cable providing one combination of these 4 at one time.

Maybe you are referring to signal splitters to provide one cable to multiple tuners, but these limit the received signal to the same combination of polarization and band for all of these tuners. And that is exactly the use case the device bonding is made for to get the most out of this limitation.

I know that there are ways (OneCable and such) to provide individual signals to different tuners via one single cable. But this requires special switches in the infrastructure of a building the renter of an apartment is usually not able to change.

Best regards, Andreas