Hi,
I searched internet many times to find vdr file format, but I found many different results.
Some sites say it is pva format, some other say it is pes format and other say it is ts format without pat/pmt tables.
What is vdr file format at last? and why we can't record directly in mpg ( mpeg ps ) format as we can do in windows?
I know how I must convert it to other formats, but I cant understand why we can't directly record in mpg?
Thanks.
jik jikman wrote:
Hi,
I searched internet many times to find vdr file format, but I found many different results.
Some sites say it is pva format, some other say it is pes format and other say it is ts format without pat/pmt tables.
What is vdr file format at last? and why we can't record directly in mpg ( mpeg ps ) format as we can do in windows?
I know how I must convert it to other formats, but I cant understand why we can't directly record in mpg?
I guess that question can only be answered if somebody can exactly point out where and how VDR's format differs from what you call 'mpg'.
To all my knowledge VDR's files are PES.
Klaus
On ke, 2005-08-24 at 14:10 +0200, Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
jik jikman wrote:
What is vdr file format at last? and why we can't record directly in mpg ( mpeg ps ) format as we can do in windows?
I guess that question can only be answered if somebody can exactly point out where and how VDR's format differs from what you call 'mpg'.
Well I think he kind of said that up there :) Being something else than PS.
Thanks, But the question is why we can't directly record in ps format. Is it vdr problem or dvb driver problem.
I call it problem because I can play vdr files with mplayerc in windows, and many other players , even vlc can't play it.
On 8/24/05, Klaus Schmidinger Klaus.Schmidinger@cadsoft.de wrote:
jik jikman wrote:
Hi,
I searched internet many times to find vdr file format, but I found many different results.
Some sites say it is pva format, some other say it is pes format and other say it is ts format without pat/pmt tables.
What is vdr file format at last? and why we can't record directly in mpg ( mpeg ps ) format as we can do in windows?
I know how I must convert it to other formats, but I cant understand why we can't directly record in mpg?
I guess that question can only be answered if somebody can exactly point out where and how VDR's format differs from what you call 'mpg'.
To all my knowledge VDR's files are PES.
Klaus
vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
jik jikman wrote:
Thanks, But the question is why we can't directly record in ps format. Is it vdr problem or dvb driver problem.
I call it problem because I can play vdr files with mplayerc in windows, and many other players , even vlc can't play it.
Sorry, I'm using vdr to play vdr files. If some other software is not able to play PES, that software cannot be used or needs to be fixed.
Changing the recording format would break backward compatibility with existing recordings. Very bad idea.
Oliver
Isn't it possible to add mpeg ps recording as a plugin to vdr? Also I think it is good idea to record in ps, because may be loose backward compatibility, but we achive forward compatibility with many other softwares.
Thanks.
On 8/24/05, Oliver Endriss o.endriss@gmx.de wrote:
jik jikman wrote:
Thanks, But the question is why we can't directly record in ps format. Is it vdr problem or dvb driver problem.
I call it problem because I can play vdr files with mplayerc in windows, and many other players , even vlc can't play it.
Sorry, I'm using vdr to play vdr files. If some other software is not able to play PES, that software cannot be used or needs to be fixed.
Changing the recording format would break backward compatibility with existing recordings. Very bad idea.
Oliver
--
VDR Remote Plugin available at http://www.escape-edv.de/endriss/vdr/
vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
Isn't it possible to add mpeg ps recording as a plugin to vdr? Also I think it is good idea to record in ps, because may be loose backward compatibility, but we achive forward compatibility with many other softwares.
Thanks.
Unfortunately, DVB subtitling will still be a major problem, at least in Finland and other countries that use it. Is there a player that supports DVB subtitles? A patched VDR does.
Kari
On Wed, 2005-08-24 at 17:41 +0430, jik jikman wrote:
Isn't it possible to add mpeg ps recording as a plugin to vdr? Also I think it is good idea to record in ps, because may be loose backward compatibility, but we achive forward compatibility with many other softwares.
That's what vdrsync, etc., are for!
;)
Cheers,
Laz
In 200508241502.33976@orion.escape-edv.de, Oliver Endriss wrote:
jik jikman wrote:
Thanks, But the question is why we can't directly record in ps format. Is it vdr problem or dvb driver problem.
I call it problem because I can play vdr files with mplayerc in windows, and many other players , even vlc can't play it.
Sorry, I'm using vdr to play vdr files. If some other software is not able to play PES, that software cannot be used or needs to be fixed.
Not everyone can use VDR that way because of limitations of output plugins, but it can still be useful for making recordings to watch with something else (by using the vdr-xine plugin for output but not actually running xine). MPlayer seems to be the only other player capable of playing the format, but it has problems like not being able to work out the length of recordings and show playback progress correctly. And even vdrsync often doesn't work properly. ProjectX nearly always works well though.
Changing the recording format would break backward compatibility with existing recordings. Very bad idea.
It should be able to cope with a new format while still being compatible with the old one.
jik jikman wrote:
Some sites say it is pva format, some other say it is pes format and other say it is ts format without pat/pmt tables.
What is vdr file format at last? and why we can't record directly in mpg ( mpeg ps ) format as we can do in windows?
Some clarifications about terms AFAIK:
Elementary Stream (ES): Video stream, audio stream or similar data stream.
Packetized Elementary Stream (PES): ES cut into a sequence of packets. Since all PES packets of one ES share one stream id, its possible to mix PES packets of several ES streams into one PES stream. PES also adds information for time synchronization of the streams.
Transport Stream (TS): Mainly used for live streams. Another packet stream that packs several PES streams, each containing only one ES stream, into small packets for transport. The streams are separated by the packet identifier (PID). TS also adds data packets describing the contents of the stream.
Program Stream (PS): The classic mpeg2 video file format. PS packs several PES packets of different ES streams into 'packs'. Also, PS has info headers describing the contents of the PS.
PES is not meant to be a file format, its just an internal stream format. PES or similar formats are widely used by PVRs because data of TS streams can easily be extracted into PES streams. However, PES as file format has several disadvantages:
- No content information headers, streams may appear or disappear at any time. No way to tell exactly whats in it without scanning the whole file.
- Strange A/V syncing, like audio starting a second earlier than video, or audio and video not having the same length.
- Discontinuities. There may be gaps of several minutes in video and audio data (cut out). No way to tell how long a video is without scanning the whole file.
Converting from PES to a well-formatted PS is a tough job, thats why there are special programs doing that job. Directly recording into PS wont make it easier.
Cheers,
Udo
Tony Houghton wrote:
In 200508241502.33976@orion.escape-edv.de, Oliver Endriss wrote:
Sorry, I'm using vdr to play vdr files. If some other software is not able to play PES, that software cannot be used or needs to be fixed.
Not everyone can use VDR that way because of limitations of output plugins, but it can still be useful for making recordings to watch with something else (by using the vdr-xine plugin for output but not actually running xine). MPlayer seems to be the only other player capable of playing the format, but it has problems like not being able to work out the length of recordings and show playback progress correctly. And even vdrsync often doesn't work properly. ProjectX nearly always works well though.
Well, xine also plays them, you just have to rename them to .mpg or make a symlink.
In 430CA127.3070302@iki.fi, Lauri Tischler wrote:
Tony Houghton wrote:
Not everyone can use VDR that way because of limitations of output plugins,
As VDR was designed to be used with Full Function DVB-board as a replacement for STB, I see no reason to change anything.
If everyone thought that way there would be no other output plugins.
Hi,
Anssi Hannula wrote:
Well, xine also plays them, you just have to rename them to .mpg or make a symlink.
Well, appending
#demux:mpeg_pes
to the file name will explicitely specifiy the demuxer to use. Maybe I should create a little patch which assigns *.vdr to demux_mpeg_pes ;-)
Bye.
Reinhard Nissl wrote:
Hi,
Anssi Hannula wrote:
Well, xine also plays them, you just have to rename them to .mpg or make a symlink.
Well, appending
#demux:mpeg_pesto the file name will explicitely specifiy the demuxer to use. Maybe I should create a little patch which assigns *.vdr to demux_mpeg_pes ;-)
Even better, why couldn't xine try all demuxer types before erroring?
Hi,
Tony Houghton wrote:
In 200508241502.33976@orion.escape-edv.de, Oliver Endriss wrote:
Sorry, I'm using vdr to play vdr files. If some other software is not able to play PES, that software cannot be used or needs to be fixed.
Not everyone can use VDR that way because of limitations of output plugins, but it can still be useful for making recordings to watch with something else (by using the vdr-xine plugin for output but not actually running xine). MPlayer seems to be the only other player capable of playing the format, but it has problems like not being able to work out the length of recordings and show playback progress correctly. And even vdrsync often doesn't work properly. ProjectX nearly always works well though.
I am really missing a widely supported recording format. As long as you use only VDR, the vdr format is no problem, but as soon as you want to use streaming clients or different platforms (anyone here who still uses windows? :) ), you will run intro trouble. And having to convert every recording before watching it, is not really user friendly, and takes (unnecessary) space and time. Additionally, I use ProjectX for ages, and because of some recent changes, I am no more able to demux recordings that have more than two DD tracks. This also is a limitation that could be avoided by using a more common format. MPG is somewhat limited as already mentioned (subtitles etc.), so I would prefer some TS recording format like d-Box and Dreambox use it. Even if this conversion technically does not make sense (see a long thread at vdrportal.de), it make sense in a consumer´s view. And maybe we could finally get a well working TS live streaming (see discussion about dBox2 streaming-plugin in vdrportal and complaints about vlc not being able to play streams with sound, while dbox/Dreambox streams do work).
With kind regards
Joerg Knitter
On Wed, Aug 24, 2005 at 06:41:25PM +0200, Udo Richter wrote:
jik jikman wrote:
Some sites say it is pva format, some other say it is pes format and other say it is ts format without pat/pmt tables.
What is vdr file format at last? and why we can't record directly in mpg ( mpeg ps ) format as we can do in windows?
Some clarifications about terms AFAIK:
Elementary Stream (ES): Video stream, audio stream or similar data stream.
Packetized Elementary Stream (PES): ES cut into a sequence of packets. Since all PES packets of one ES share one stream id, its possible to mix PES packets of several ES streams into one PES stream. PES also adds information for time synchronization of the streams.
Transport Stream (TS): Mainly used for live streams. Another packet stream that packs several PES streams, each containing only one ES stream, into small packets for transport. The streams are separated by the packet identifier (PID). TS also adds data packets describing the contents of the stream.
Program Stream (PS): The classic mpeg2 video file format. PS packs several PES packets of different ES streams into 'packs'. Also, PS has info headers describing the contents of the PS.
PES is not meant to be a file format, its just an internal stream format. PES or similar formats are widely used by PVRs because data of TS streams can easily be extracted into PES streams. However, PES as file format has several disadvantages:
- No content information headers, streams may appear or disappear at any
time. No way to tell exactly whats in it without scanning the whole file.
- Strange A/V syncing, like audio starting a second earlier than video,
or audio and video not having the same length.
- Discontinuities. There may be gaps of several minutes in video and
audio data (cut out). No way to tell how long a video is without scanning the whole file.
Converting from PES to a well-formatted PS is a tough job, thats why there are special programs doing that job. Directly recording into PS wont make it easier.
So converting from TS directly to PS would be the best choise.. ? TS still contains the timing information..
vdr has access to TS stream, so it could save in TS format, or convert to correct/synced PS format?
-- Pasi
^ . . Linux / - \ Choice.of.the .Next.Generation.
Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
So converting from TS directly to PS would be the best choise.. ? TS still contains the timing information..
vdr has access to TS stream, so it could save in TS format, or convert to correct/synced PS format?
VDR would have to convert TS to PES and back to TS to do this, as you usually don't want to record everything on a transponder. Basically, there's no problem to convert the stream content between TS, PS and PES, but as I said, VDR recordings are far from being a simple video file. A straightforward conversion to PS will result in a PS video that will drive most players crazy. TS stream players are more robust to handle live streams, and even they sometimes loose A/V sync.
Cheers,
Udo
On Thursday 25 August 2005 18:34, Udo Richter wrote:
Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
So converting from TS directly to PS would be the best choise.. ? TS still contains the timing information..
vdr has access to TS stream, so it could save in TS format, or convert to correct/synced PS format?
VDR would have to convert TS to PES and back to TS to do this, as you usually don't want to record everything on a transponder.
ehm, why do a conversion? a ts can be generated by selecting pids of a service with demux.output = DMX_OUT_TS_TAP after adding the pids, just read and save the content of the dvr device.
i think choosing PES as a storing format - causing incompatibilities with different playback solutions than vdr - was made, because the av7110 full featured dvb adapters are not able to act like normal set-top-box chips. they are not able to playback from a ts file directly. so internally the ts is converted and repacked by the driver. as these functions have got some race conditions that are not fixed (will they ever be?), imho there is no real chance to have ts in future.
Basically, there's no problem to convert the stream content between TS, PS and PES, but as I said, VDR recordings are far from being a simple video file. A straightforward conversion to PS will result in a PS video that will drive most players crazy. TS stream players are more robust to handle live streams, and even they sometimes loose A/V sync.
Cheers,
Udo
vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
regards marcel
Mws wrote:
VDR would have to convert TS to PES and back to TS to do this, as you usually don't want to record everything on a transponder.
ehm, why do a conversion? a ts can be generated by selecting pids of a service with demux.output = DMX_OUT_TS_TAP after adding the pids, just read and save the content of the dvr device.
Yes, but IMO VDR receives some more PIDs than just the ones that get recorded. EPG, teletext, maybe another recording from same transponder, etc. You have to pick out the packets for recording anyway, and then its just a minor step to PES. Plus, you have to generate new program announcements to match the part you're actually recording.
Cheers,
Udo
Mws mws@twisted-brains.org writes:
i think choosing PES as a storing format - causing incompatibilities with different playback solutions than vdr - was made, because the av7110 full featured dvb adapters are not able to act like normal set-top-box chips. they are not able to playback from a ts file directly.
This requirement is moot for budget cards. May be vdr should provide (yet another :-/ ) configuration parameter to choose the file type for recordings.
So owners of budget of ff cards can choose the format that best fit their needs.
Cheers
Dominique Dumont wrote:
Mws mws@twisted-brains.org writes:
i think choosing PES as a storing format - causing incompatibilities with different playback solutions than vdr - was made, because the av7110 full featured dvb adapters are not able to act like normal set-top-box chips. they are not able to playback from a ts file directly.
This requirement is moot for budget cards. May be vdr should provide (yet another :-/ ) configuration parameter to choose the file type for recordings.
So owners of budget of ff cards can choose the format that best fit their needs.
Having two different recording formats is a very bad idea, IMHO.
Besides, over at vdrportal.de somebody posted that about 50% of his recordings can be processed with other tools, so the files produced by VDR can't be all that bad.
And since all of the files that were ok for him were from the German "öffentlich rechtliche" stations, and those that didn't work were from private stations, it must have something to do with the actual data that comes from the stations. So the proper course of action should be to find out what exactly that difference is.
Klaus
Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
Having two different recording formats is a very bad idea, IMHO.
Plus, see my other post, without some stream post processing the result wont be really useful for other programs.
Besides, over at vdrportal.de somebody posted that about 50% of his recordings can be processed with other tools, so the files produced by VDR can't be all that bad.
After demuxing them with ProjectX, VDR recordings are excellent for me, from all stations. No known bugs there. (AFAIK there are some NTSC issues left.) I even have a recording that confuses my FF card, but works flawless on PC. (seems DVB incompatible)
Just converting to m2p (as a simple change in VDR output also would) is problematic: For cut recordings, all players report a wrong recording length, some have serious trouble on seeking, and I bet that some players will have A/V desyncing too.
Cheers,
Udo
On Sat, Aug 27, 2005 at 10:56:58PM +0200, Udo Richter wrote:
Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
Having two different recording formats is a very bad idea, IMHO.
Plus, see my other post, without some stream post processing the result wont be really useful for other programs.
Besides, over at vdrportal.de somebody posted that about 50% of his recordings can be processed with other tools, so the files produced by VDR can't be all that bad.
After demuxing them with ProjectX, VDR recordings are excellent for me, from all stations. No known bugs there. (AFAIK there are some NTSC issues left.) I even have a recording that confuses my FF card, but works flawless on PC. (seems DVB incompatible)
Just converting to m2p (as a simple change in VDR output also would) is problematic: For cut recordings, all players report a wrong recording length, some have serious trouble on seeking, and I bet that some players will have A/V desyncing too.
It would be nice to have _good_ plugin for exporting vdr recordings to PS format.. something like ProjectX plugin integrated to VDR.
I think that would reduce the noise about vdr fileformat a lot..
-- Pasi
^ . . Linux / - \ Choice.of.the .Next.Generation.
Pasi Kärkkäinen wrote:
It would be nice to have _good_ plugin for exporting vdr recordings to PS format.. something like ProjectX plugin integrated to VDR.
As you see, i would prefer TS format, so i would be able to play these files on my dbox :) But the idea is not that bad, perhaps anyone is willing to code such thing ?
I think that would reduce the noise about vdr fileformat a lot..
Agree
-- Pasi
/hgm.bg
It would be nice to have _good_ plugin for exporting vdr recordings to PS format.. something like ProjectX plugin integrated to VDR.
I think that would reduce the noise about vdr fileformat a lot..
You can already use vdrsync.pl. This can transform vdr recordings to mpeg, dvd or divx. It can also cut recordings ( using vdr's marks ). Just add a line to the reccmds.conf and install the necessary packages for vdrsync.
In 4311A668.1000709@helmutauer.de, Helmut Auer wrote:
It would be nice to have _good_ plugin for exporting vdr recordings to PS format.. something like ProjectX plugin integrated to VDR.
I think that would reduce the noise about vdr fileformat a lot..
You can already use vdrsync.pl. This can transform vdr recordings to mpeg, dvd or divx. It can also cut recordings ( using vdr's marks ). Just add a line to the reccmds.conf and install the necessary packages for vdrsync.
I found that occasionally failed - generating output that neither of the *mplex tools could handle IIRC - probably due to errors in the stream caused by less than perfect DVB-T reception. ProjectX has a much higher success rate.
What about mencoder? It's always been very good at handling errors, it can obviously handle .vdr input, and MPEG output has been working properly for the last few versions. But I don't know whether it would convert PES to PS in the process.
On Sunday 28 August 2005 14:56, Helmut Auer wrote:
You can already use vdrsync.pl. This can transform vdr recordings to mpeg, dvd or divx. It can also cut recordings ( using vdr's marks ). Just add a line to the reccmds.conf and install the necessary packages for vdrsync.
Vdrsync is not an option since it completely fails to keep sync if there are too many errors in a stream and it doesn't even remove the errors like ProjectX does.
On Sun, 28 Aug 2005, Jukka Tastula wrote:
On Sunday 28 August 2005 14:56, Helmut Auer wrote:
You can already use vdrsync.pl. This can transform vdr recordings to mpeg, dvd or divx. It can also cut recordings ( using vdr's marks ). Just add a line to the reccmds.conf and install the necessary packages for vdrsync.
Vdrsync is not an option since it completely fails to keep sync if there are too many errors in a stream and it doesn't even remove the errors like ProjectX does.
IMHO vdrsync does MPEG-PES to MPEG-PS conversion without any problems. I've used 0.1.2.2dev2 and 0.1.3PRE1 (0.1.3pre1 does handle errors much better, i had problems with mplex with some broken stream). YLE (or digita?) had broken encoder about for a month, and mplex/vdrsync 0.1.2.2dev2 had problems with that stream. Then I tried 0.1.3PRE1 and i got working MPEG-PS for DVD, no sync problems etc.
So for me, vdrsync has done things _MUCH_ better than PVAStrumento etc. ;)
-
Anssi Hannula -
Antti Hartikainen -
Dominique Dumont -
Heikki Manninen -
Helmut Auer -
HGM.bg (GMX) -
jik jikman -
Joerg Knitter -
Jukka Tastula -
Kari Smolander -
Klaus Schmidinger -
Laurence Abbott -
Lauri Tischler -
Mws -
Oliver Endriss -
Pasi Kärkkäinen -
Reinhard Nissl -
Tony Houghton -
Udo Richter