Am Donnerstag, den 23.06.2005, 14:11 +0200 schrieb Hanno Mueller:

How can I debug this problem? Is it the card, the kernel, the vdr version, the tv channel it tuned to?

Your should generate a backtrace to locate the seqfault.

Like http://linux.bytesex.org/gdb.html

It's very usefull to compile vdr additional debug informations.

#Make.config CFLAGS += -g -ggdb -O0 CXXFLAGS += -g -ggdb -O0 LDFLAGS += -g -ggdb -O0

Cu, Andreas

Am Donnerstag, den 23.06.2005, 17:32 +0200 schrieb Hanno Mueller:

I'm using the c't vdr binary packages from e-tobi.net. I'll see if I can compile my own from their sources.

Maybe help your this german tutorial, how build vdr from debian source package : http://www.e-tobi.net/blog/=2004-09-21_compiling

Cu, Andreas

Hello,

...

I'm using the c't vdr binary packages from e-tobi.net. I'll see if I can compile my own from their sources.

Maybe help your this german tutorial, how build vdr from debian source package : http://www.e-tobi.net/blog/=2004-09-21_compiling

I followed his guidelines, but the resulting binary appears to use different default values than the one he distributes in his .deb repository. It was quite difficult to get it working with the c't vdr start scripts, in the end I had to use --allow-root, thenit appeared to use the same or at least similar setting.

My debugging binary segfaults, as well. I have collected several coredumps and these are the backtraces from them. If you need one particular coredump, let me know.

As far as I can tell, there must be faulty EPG data.

Where do I go from here? How can I find out which channel is sending the broken data? And is there a possibility that the EPG data is broken because my card (or its driver) is broken?

Thanks,

Hanno

Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by `/usr/src/vdr/vdr-1.2.6/vdr-dbg --allow-root -v /var/lib/video.00 -c /var/lib/vd'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. #0 0x080d0ddf in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7cb29a0 "Pú\027\002\005ÇIø\002\002!\024IPBíÑ*\005") at libvdr.c:113 113 xForeach (((struct ExtendedEventDescriptor*) #0 0x080d0ddf in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7cb29a0 "Pú\027\002\005ÇIø\002\002!\024IPBíÑ*\005") at libvdr.c:113 #1 0x0808a188 in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb7cb3aa0, buffer=0xb7cb29a0 "Pú\027\002\005ÇIø\002\002!\024IPBíÑ*\005", CurrentSource=49152) at eit.c:924 #2 0x0808b9b9 in cSIProcessor::Action (this=0x811cc38) at eit.c:1309 #3 0x080c12b9 in cThread::StartThread (Thread=0x811cc38) at thread.c:143 #4 0xb7f1eb63 in start_thread () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 #5 0xb7dd418a in clone () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6

Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by `/usr/src/vdr/vdr-1.2.6/vdr-dbg --allow-root -v /var/lib/video.00 -c /var/lib/vd'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. #0 0x080d0b9e in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7d269a0 "Pöê\002\003÷iø\002\002!\024iPJÄÑ*\027\020") at libvdr.c:63 63 xForeach (Event->Descriptors, Descriptor) #0 0x080d0b9e in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7d269a0 "Pöê\002\003÷iø\002\002!\024iPJÄÑ*\027\020") at libvdr.c:63 #1 0x0808a188 in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb7d27aa0, buffer=0xb7d269a0 "Pöê\002\003÷iø\002\002!\024iPJÄÑ*\027\020", CurrentSource=0) at eit.c:924 #2 0x0808b9b9 in cSIProcessor::Action (this=0x811cc38) at eit.c:1309 #3 0x080c12b9 in cThread::StartThread (Thread=0x811cc38) at thread.c:143 #4 0xb7f92b63 in start_thread () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 #5 0xb7e4818a in clone () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6

Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by `/usr/src/vdr/vdr-1.2.6/vdr-dbg --allow-root -v /var/lib/video.00 -c /var/lib/vd'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. #0 0x080d0b8e in createVdrProgramInfos (siBuffer=0xb7d069a0 "PþA") at libvdr.c:63 63 xForeach (Event->Descriptors, Descriptor) #0 0x080d0b8e in createVdrProgramInfos (siBuffer=0xb7d069a0 "PþA") at libvdr.c:63 #1 0x0808a188 in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb7d07aa0, buffer=0xb7d069a0 "PþA", CurrentSource=49152) at eit.c:924 #2 0x0808b9b9 in cSIProcessor::Action (this=0x811cc38) at eit.c:1309 #3 0x080c12b9 in cThread::StartThread (Thread=0x811cc38) at thread.c:143 #4 0xb7f72b63 in start_thread () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 #5 0xb7e2818a in clone () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6

Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by `/usr/src/vdr/vdr-1.2.6/vdr-dbg --allow-root -v /var/lib/video.00 -c /var/lib/vd'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. #0 0x080d0b9e in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7cd19a0 "Qõð\002\003÷Hž\002\002!\024HQMòÑ.\0030") at libvdr.c:63 63 xForeach (Event->Descriptors, Descriptor) #0 0x080d0b9e in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7cd19a0 "Qõð\002\003÷Hž\002\002!\024HQMòÑ.\0030") at libvdr.c:63 #1 0x0808a188 in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb7cd2aa0, buffer=0xb7cd19a0 "Qõð\002\003÷Hž\002\002!\024HQMòÑ.\0030", CurrentSource=49152) at eit.c:924 #2 0x0808b9b9 in cSIProcessor::Action (this=0x811cc38) at eit.c:1309 #3 0x080c12b9 in cThread::StartThread (Thread=0x811cc38) at thread.c:143 #4 0xb7f3db63 in start_thread () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 #5 0xb7df318a in clone () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6

Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by `/usr/src/vdr/vdr-1.2.6/vdr-dbg --allow-root -v /var/lib/video.00 -c /var/lib/vd'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. #0 0x080cce4b in xMemFre ( DataPointer=0x8314750 " Wenn in unseren Breitengraden der Herbst kommt, machen sich die Zugvögel auf eine Reise in den Süden. Die Marathonflieger vollbringen unglaubliche Leistungen. Tagelang sind sie ohne Nahrung, Wasser u"...) at xMemMgt.c:303 303 if ((struct MEM_ENTRY *)((unsigned char *)TempEntry + #0 0x080cce4b in xMemFre ( DataPointer=0x8314750 " Wenn in unseren Breitengraden der Herbst kommt, machen sich die Zugvögel auf eine Reise in den Süden. Die Marathonflieger vollbringen unglaubliche Leistungen. Tagelang sind sie ohne Nahrung, Wasser u"...) at xMemMgt.c:303 #1 0x080d0dad in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7c6b9a0 "Pÿ\a\002\005Çyø\002\002!\024zPEèÑ*"") at libvdr.c:111 #2 0x0808a188 in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb7c6caa0, buffer=0xb7c6b9a0 "Pÿ\a\002\005Çyø\002\002!\024zPEèÑ*"", CurrentSource=0) at eit.c:924 #3 0x0808b9b9 in cSIProcessor::Action (this=0x811cc38) at eit.c:1309 #4 0x080c12b9 in cThread::StartThread (Thread=0x811cc38) at thread.c:143 #5 0xb7ed7b63 in start_thread () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 #6 0xb7d8d18a in clone () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6

Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by `/usr/src/vdr/vdr-1.2.6/vdr-dbg --allow-root -v /var/lib/video.00 -c /var/lib/vd'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. #0 0x080d0b8e in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7c649a0 "Pÿ¡\002\005Ç@ø\002\002!\024APEúÑ*") at libvdr.c:63 63 xForeach (Event->Descriptors, Descriptor) #0 0x080d0b8e in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7c649a0 "Pÿ¡\002\005Ç@ø\002\002!\024APEúÑ*") at libvdr.c:63 #1 0x0808a188 in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb7c65aa0, buffer=0xb7c649a0 "Pÿ¡\002\005Ç@ø\002\002!\024APEúÑ*", CurrentSource=0) at eit.c:924 #2 0x0808b9b9 in cSIProcessor::Action (this=0x811cc38) at eit.c:1309 #3 0x080c12b9 in cThread::StartThread (Thread=0x811cc38) at thread.c:143 #4 0xb7ed0b63 in start_thread () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 #5 0xb7d8618a in clone () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6

Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by `/usr/src/vdr/vdr-1.2.6/vdr-dbg --allow-root -v /var/lib/video.00 -c /var/lib/vd'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. #0 0x080d0e71 in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7cca9a0 "Pûü\002\005Çjø\002\002!\024kP?ÐÑ*\026%") at libvdr.c:116 116 AddItemToText (xName (Item), #0 0x080d0e71 in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7cca9a0 "Pûü\002\005Çjø\002\002!\024kP?ÐÑ*\026%") at libvdr.c:116 #1 0x0808a188 in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb7ccbaa0, buffer=0xb7cca9a0 "Pûü\002\005Çjø\002\002!\024kP?ÐÑ*\026%", CurrentSource=0) at eit.c:924 #2 0x0808b9b9 in cSIProcessor::Action (this=0x811cc38) at eit.c:1309 #3 0x080c12b9 in cThread::StartThread (Thread=0x811cc38) at thread.c:143 #4 0xb7f36b63 in start_thread () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 #5 0xb7dec18a in clone () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6

Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by `/usr/src/vdr/vdr-1.2.6/vdr-dbg --allow-root -v /var/lib/video.00 -c /var/lib/vd'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. #0 0x0808a1ab in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb6d27aa0, buffer=0xb6d269a0 "NñÚmÌé", CurrentSource=16384) at eit.c:929 929 cChannel *channel = Channels.GetByServiceID(CurrentSource, VdrProgramInfo->ServiceID); #0 0x0808a1ab in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb6d27aa0, buffer=0xb6d269a0 "NñÚmÌé", CurrentSource=16384) at eit.c:929 #1 0x0808b9b9 in cSIProcessor::Action (this=0x811ccd8) at eit.c:1309 #2 0x080c12b9 in cThread::StartThread (Thread=0x811ccd8) at thread.c:143 #3 0xb7f92b63 in start_thread () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 #4 0xb7e4818a in clone () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6 Current language: auto; currently c++

Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by `/usr/src/vdr/vdr-1.2.6/vdr-dbg --allow-root -v /var/lib/video.00 -c /var/lib/vd'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. #0 0x080d0b9e in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7c5b9a0 "Pý\216\002\005Ç!ø\002\002!\024!PB×Ñ)\023E") at libvdr.c:63 63 xForeach (Event->Descriptors, Descriptor) #0 0x080d0b9e in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7c5b9a0 "Pý\216\002\005Ç!ø\002\002!\024!PB×Ñ)\023E") at libvdr.c:63 #1 0x0808a188 in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb7c5caa0, buffer=0xb7c5b9a0 "Pý\216\002\005Ç!ø\002\002!\024!PB×Ñ)\023E", CurrentSource=0) at eit.c:924 #2 0x0808b9b9 in cSIProcessor::Action (this=0x811cc38) at eit.c:1309 #3 0x080c12b9 in cThread::StartThread (Thread=0x811cc38) at thread.c:143 #4 0xb7ec7b63 in start_thread () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 #5 0xb7d7d18a in clone () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6

Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by `/usr/src/vdr/vdr-1.2.6/vdr-dbg --allow-root -v /var/lib/video.00 -c /var/lib/vd'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. #0 0xb7d32363 in strlen () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6 #0 0xb7d32363 in strlen () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6 #1 0x080cd210 in xSetText (xText=0x18 <Address 0x18 out of bounds>) at xMemMgt.c:620 #2 0x080d0e7c in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7c709a0 "Pý;\002\005Ç\212ø\002\002!\024\213PC"Ñ+\004P") at libvdr.c:116 #3 0x0808a188 in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb7c71aa0, buffer=0xb7c709a0 "Pý;\002\005Ç\212ø\002\002!\024\213PC"Ñ+\004P", CurrentSource=0) at eit.c:924 #4 0x0808b9b9 in cSIProcessor::Action (this=0x811cc38) at eit.c:1309 #5 0x080c12b9 in cThread::StartThread (Thread=0x811cc38) at thread.c:143 #6 0xb7edcb63 in start_thread () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 #7 0xb7d9218a in clone () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6

Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by `/usr/src/vdr/vdr-1.2.6/vdr-dbg --allow-root -v /var/lib/video.00 -c /var/lib/vd'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. #0 0x080d0ddf in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7c7c9a0 "Pýè\002\005Ëaø\002\002!\024aPC\001Ñ*\0230") at libvdr.c:113 113 xForeach (((struct ExtendedEventDescriptor*) #0 0x080d0ddf in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7c7c9a0 "Pýè\002\005Ëaø\002\002!\024aPC\001Ñ*\0230") at libvdr.c:113 #1 0x0808a188 in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb7c7daa0, buffer=0xb7c7c9a0 "Pýè\002\005Ëaø\002\002!\024aPC\001Ñ*\0230", CurrentSource=49152) at eit.c:924 #2 0x0808b9b9 in cSIProcessor::Action (this=0x811cc38) at eit.c:1309 #3 0x080c12b9 in cThread::StartThread (Thread=0x811cc38) at thread.c:143 #4 0xb7ee8b63 in start_thread () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 #5 0xb7d9e18a in clone () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6

Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by `/usr/src/vdr/vdr-1.2.6/vdr-dbg --allow-root -v /var/lib/video.00 -c /var/lib/vd'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. #0 0x080d0b8e in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7c7a9a0 "PüÍ\002\002Ï8ø\002\002!\0248Pz`Ñ)! ") at libvdr.c:63 63 xForeach (Event->Descriptors, Descriptor) #0 0x080d0b8e in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7c7a9a0 "PüÍ\002\002Ï8ø\002\002!\0248Pz`Ñ)! ") at libvdr.c:63 #1 0x0808a188 in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb7c7baa0, buffer=0xb7c7a9a0 "PüÍ\002\002Ï8ø\002\002!\0248Pz`Ñ)! ", CurrentSource=49152) at eit.c:924 #2 0x0808b9b9 in cSIProcessor::Action (this=0x811cc38) at eit.c:1309 #3 0x080c12b9 in cThread::StartThread (Thread=0x811cc38) at thread.c:143 #4 0xb7ee6b63 in start_thread () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 #5 0xb7d9c18a in clone () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6

Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by `/usr/src/vdr/vdr-1.2.6/vdr-dbg --allow-root -v /var/lib/video.00 -c /var/lib/vd'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. #0 0x080d0b8e in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7c7c9a0 "Pøo\002\005Ë`ø\002\002!\024aPBþÑ*\022") at libvdr.c:63 63 xForeach (Event->Descriptors, Descriptor) #0 0x080d0b8e in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7c7c9a0 "Pøo\002\005Ë`ø\002\002!\024aPBþÑ*\022") at libvdr.c:63 #1 0x0808a188 in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb7c7daa0, buffer=0xb7c7c9a0 "Pøo\002\005Ë`ø\002\002!\024aPBþÑ*\022", CurrentSource=49152) at eit.c:924 #2 0x0808b9b9 in cSIProcessor::Action (this=0x811cc38) at eit.c:1309 #3 0x080c12b9 in cThread::StartThread (Thread=0x811cc38) at thread.c:143 #4 0xb7ee8b63 in start_thread () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 #5 0xb7d9e18a in clone () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6

Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by `/usr/src/vdr/vdr-1.2.6/vdr-dbg --allow-root -v /var/lib/video.00 -c /var/lib/vd'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. #0 0x080d0ddf in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7cb99a0 "Pý;\002\005Ë\212ø\002\002!\024\213PC"Ñ+\004P") at libvdr.c:113 113 xForeach (((struct ExtendedEventDescriptor*) #0 0x080d0ddf in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7cb99a0 "Pý;\002\005Ë\212ø\002\002!\024\213PC"Ñ+\004P") at libvdr.c:113 #1 0x0808a188 in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb7cbaaa0, buffer=0xb7cb99a0 "Pý;\002\005Ë\212ø\002\002!\024\213PC"Ñ+\004P", CurrentSource=0) at eit.c:924 #2 0x0808b9b9 in cSIProcessor::Action (this=0x811cc38) at eit.c:1309 #3 0x080c12b9 in cThread::StartThread (Thread=0x811cc38) at thread.c:143 #4 0xb7f25b63 in start_thread () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 #5 0xb7ddb18a in clone () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6

Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by `/usr/src/vdr/vdr-1.2.6/vdr-dbg --allow-root -v /var/lib/video.00 -c /var/lib/vd'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. #0 0x080d0ddf in createVdrProgramInfos (siBuffer=0xb7c4a9a0 "P÷\030") at libvdr.c:113 113 xForeach (((struct ExtendedEventDescriptor*) #0 0x080d0ddf in createVdrProgramInfos (siBuffer=0xb7c4a9a0 "P÷\030") at libvdr.c:113 #1 0x0808a188 in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb7c4baa0, buffer=0xb7c4a9a0 "P÷\030", CurrentSource=49152) at eit.c:924 #2 0x0808b9b9 in cSIProcessor::Action (this=0x811cc38) at eit.c:1309 #3 0x080c12b9 in cThread::StartThread (Thread=0x811cc38) at thread.c:143 #4 0xb7eb6b63 in start_thread () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 #5 0xb7d6c18a in clone () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6

Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by `/usr/src/vdr/vdr-1.2.6/vdr-dbg --allow-root -v /var/lib/video.00 -c /var/lib/vd'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. #0 0x080d0c7a in createVdrProgramInfos (siBuffer=0xb7ca89a0 "Pց") at libvdr.c:73 73 switch (Descriptor->Tag) #0 0x080d0c7a in createVdrProgramInfos (siBuffer=0xb7ca89a0 "Pց") at libvdr.c:73 #1 0x0808a188 in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb7ca9aa0, buffer=0xb7ca89a0 "Pց", CurrentSource=49152) at eit.c:924 #2 0x0808b9b9 in cSIProcessor::Action (this=0x811cc38) at eit.c:1309 #3 0x080c12b9 in cThread::StartThread (Thread=0x811cc38) at thread.c:143 #4 0xb7f14b63 in start_thread () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 #5 0xb7dca18a in clone () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6

Using host libthread_db library "/lib/tls/libthread_db.so.1". Core was generated by `/usr/src/vdr/vdr-1.2.6/vdr-dbg --allow-root -v /var/lib/video.00 -c /var/lib/vd'. Program terminated with signal 11, Segmentation fault. #0 0x080ce3d0 in siParseEIT ( Buffer=0xb7cd99a0 "PþÅ\002\003û\211ø\002\002!\024\212PMYÑ+\004\025") at si_parser.c:433 433 xAddTail (EventList, Event); #0 0x080ce3d0 in siParseEIT ( Buffer=0xb7cd99a0 "PþÅ\002\003û\211ø\002\002!\024\212PMYÑ+\004\025") at si_parser.c:433 #1 0x080d0b3c in createVdrProgramInfos ( siBuffer=0xb7cd99a0 "PþÅ\002\003û\211ø\002\002!\024\212PMYÑ+\004\025") at libvdr.c:54 #2 0x0808a188 in cEIT::ProcessEIT (this=0xb7cdaaa0, buffer=0xb7cd99a0 "PþÅ\002\003û\211ø\002\002!\024\212PMYÑ+\004\025", CurrentSource=49152) at eit.c:924 #3 0x0808b9b9 in cSIProcessor::Action (this=0x811cc38) at eit.c:1309 #4 0x080c12b9 in cThread::StartThread (Thread=0x811cc38) at thread.c:143 #5 0xb7f45b63 in start_thread () from /lib/tls/libpthread.so.0 #6 0xb7dfb18a in clone () from /lib/tls/libc.so.6

I demand that Hanno Mueller may or may not have written...

Andreas Brachold schrieb:

[snip]

...

It's very usefull to compile vdr additional debug informations.

...

#Make.config CFLAGS += -g -ggdb -O0 CXXFLAGS += -g -ggdb -O0 LDFLAGS += -g -ggdb -O0

I'm using the c't vdr binary packages from e-tobi.net. I'll see if I can compile my own from their sources.

$ sudo apt-get build-dep vdr $ apt-get source vdr $ cd vdr-1.* $ DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS='debug nostrip' debuild binary

(You may need to use 'noopt' instead of 'debug' - check debian/rules first.)

[snip]