Hi list,
some time ago my girlfriend wanted to record a program via EPG. She has never done that before but managed it easily to program the timer out of the EPG-view. But when she saw the timer-data she did not press OK button to save the timer because there was no hint to do so. She pressed back the menu closed and the timer was lost :( -
The question: Bad luck or bad user interface?
On many Set Top Boxes I recognized that lots of hints and status messages are displayed. This makes it possible that also unexperienced users can use the device.
As long as only 'root' has the remot control in his hands there is no need for messages - but other users seem to have some problems.
Since 1.3.40 a message 'Recording started' is displayed when the Record button was pressed. This is the right way. End-user devices give feedback to almost everything
My proposal for the timer issue (and maybe in general):
- color key to explicitly save and exit the timer editing menu - warning when exiting the timer menu without having saved ( e.g. 'timer not saved. Really exit?' )
that would be common behaviour of almost all end-user applications.
I would also wish a confirm message when stopping playback (also plugins mp3 etc.). I often stopped playback accidently when browsing menus during playback. Especially by pressing blue button.
I know that the 'Don't ask and do what I say' lobby won't like it but maybe a setup option verbose could be added to control the level of verbosity.
What do you think about that?
Regards Peter
Peter Juszack wrote:
Hi list,
some time ago my girlfriend wanted to record a program via EPG. She has never done that before but managed it easily to program the timer out of the EPG-view. But when she saw the timer-data she did not press OK button to save the timer because there was no hint to do so. She pressed back the menu closed and the timer was lost :( -
The question: Bad luck or bad user interface?
On many Set Top Boxes I recognized that lots of hints and status messages are displayed. This makes it possible that also unexperienced users can use the device.
As long as only 'root' has the remot control in his hands there is no need for messages - but other users seem to have some problems.
Since 1.3.40 a message 'Recording started' is displayed when the Record button was pressed. This is the right way. End-user devices give feedback to almost everything
My proposal for the timer issue (and maybe in general):
- color key to explicitly save and exit the timer editing menu
- warning when exiting the timer menu without having saved ( e.g. 'timer
not saved. Really exit?' )
that would be common behaviour of almost all end-user applications.
Since version 1.3.38 the Red button in the Schedule menu immediately creates the timer and marks the event with 'T'. So it can't happen any more that a timer is not confirmed.
I would also wish a confirm message when stopping playback (also plugins mp3 etc.). I often stopped playback accidently when browsing menus during playback. Especially by pressing blue button.
I know that the 'Don't ask and do what I say' lobby won't like it but maybe a setup option verbose could be added to control the level of verbosity.
I'd hate if I'm asked every time I stop a replay - and I also don't think that this is woth YASO (Yet Another Setup Option).
See also http://www.heise.de/ct/schlagseite/06/01/gross.jpg ;-)
Klaus
On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 14:00 +0100, Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
Since version 1.3.38 the Red button in the Schedule menu immediately creates the timer and marks the event with 'T'. So it can't happen any more that a timer is not confirmed.
I upraded from 1.3.36 to 1.3.40 last weekend and noticed this new behaviour last night. I like it a lot! Much faster than having to press OK after seeing the timer settings (which are generally how I want them anyway!). It just feels slicker now.
:-)
I would also wish a confirm message when stopping playback (also plugins mp3 etc.). I often stopped playback accidently when browsing menus during playback. Especially by pressing blue button.
I know that the 'Don't ask and do what I say' lobby won't like it but maybe a setup option verbose could be added to control the level of verbosity.
I'd hate if I'm asked every time I stop a replay - and I also don't think that this is woth YASO (Yet Another Setup Option).
Ditto: that would be really annoying but then I generally use a 'proper' Stop button rather than the blue button to stop playback. I'd have thought stopping playback by accident is only a minor annoyance, compared with shutting down by accident, for example, which does have a confirmation message.
Cheers,
Laz
Laurence Abbott wrote:
Ditto: that would be really annoying but then I generally use a 'proper' Stop button rather than the blue button to stop playback. I'd have thought stopping playback by accident is only a minor annoyance, compared with shutting down by accident, for example, which does have a confirmation message.
At present time there are three ways to end playback: Stop, Back and Blue. I agree in pressing Stop means Stop and requires no confirmation. ( The stop button will almost not be pressed accidently). The other ways are for people who don not have a stop button on their remote control or don't have a remote control? I think they exist for historical reasons.
As long as not at least the Back key is disabled to stop playback it can be very annoying.
An accidently stopped playback of a recording can be continued via Red key. But an interrupted mp3 from a playlist means more 'work' to continue at the lost position. Of course that can be seen as a mp3 plugin problem. But the plugin developer gives the same meaning to keys as VDR does. This is required to achieve a consistent handling and I totally agree to.
So maybe at least the Back key could be disabled?
What do you mean with 'minor annoyance'? That it is annoying but should be tolerated?
Regards Peter
On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 15:27 +0100, Peter Juszack wrote:
Laurence Abbott wrote:
Ditto: that would be really annoying but then I generally use a 'proper' Stop button rather than the blue button to stop playback. I'd have thought stopping playback by accident is only a minor annoyance, compared with shutting down by accident, for example, which does have a confirmation message.
{snippage}
So maybe at least the Back key could be disabled?
I've never used the back key for that, maybe because this usage seems illogical to me.
What do you mean with 'minor annoyance'? That it is annoying but should be tolerated?
I was just meaning that it is east to restart playing back a recording. Granted, getting back to the mp3 you were playing is a lot more work but I was comparing with shutting down by mistake, where you'd probably have to wait a few minutes, get up, go and poke the power button, and then wait a few more minutes while it boots back up, before you can start to get back to where you were!
:-)
Cheers,
Laz
I've never used the back key for that, maybe because this usage seems illogical to me.
Same here. But the Back key is the one which often accidently ends playback.
But I see that it is an useless discussion because of different points of view (at least with Klaus who has to decide that after all).
So I will patch it on my own or just leave it as 'minor annoying'.
Peter
Peter Juszack wrote:
Laurence Abbott wrote:
Ditto: that would be really annoying but then I generally use a 'proper' Stop button rather than the blue button to stop playback. I'd have thought stopping playback by accident is only a minor annoyance, compared with shutting down by accident, for example, which does have a confirmation message.
At present time there are three ways to end playback: Stop, Back and Blue. I agree in pressing Stop means Stop and requires no confirmation. ( The stop button will almost not be pressed accidently). The other ways are for people who don not have a stop button on their remote control or don't have a remote control? I think they exist for historical reasons.
As long as not at least the Back key is disabled to stop playback it can be very annoying.
An accidently stopped playback of a recording can be continued via Red key. But an interrupted mp3 from a playlist means more 'work' to continue at the lost position. Of course that can be seen as a mp3 plugin problem. But the plugin developer gives the same meaning to keys as VDR does. This is required to achieve a consistent handling and I totally agree to.
So maybe at least the Back key could be disabled?
Well, the "Back" key is the normal way I end replaying, because it leads me back to the "Recordings" menu where I can delete the recording I have just viewed.
Klaus
I demand that Laurence Abbott may or may not have written...
On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 14:00 +0100, Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
Since version 1.3.38 the Red button in the Schedule menu immediately creates the timer and marks the event with 'T'. So it can't happen any more that a timer is not confirmed.
I upraded from 1.3.36 to 1.3.40 last weekend and noticed this new behaviour last night. I like it a lot! Much faster than having to press OK after seeing the timer settings (which are generally how I want them anyway!). It just feels slicker now.
Just wait until you want to record a film on, say, ITV2. You know, one of those which is split in half so that they can stick in some other programme, the scheduled start and end times of which are works of fiction.
;-)
[snip]
Darren Salt wrote:
I demand that Laurence Abbott may or may not have written...
On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 14:00 +0100, Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
Since version 1.3.38 the Red button in the Schedule menu immediately creates the timer and marks the event with 'T'. So it can't happen any more that a timer is not confirmed.
I upraded from 1.3.36 to 1.3.40 last weekend and noticed this new behaviour last night. I like it a lot! Much faster than having to press OK after seeing the timer settings (which are generally how I want them anyway!). It just feels slicker now.
Just wait until you want to record a film on, say, ITV2. You know, one of those which is split in half so that they can stick in some other programme, the scheduled start and end times of which are works of fiction.
Can you give an example of this?
Klaus
hey all
not sure but this maybe a ? all ready hashed or talked about before. if so dont bother. with a answer. what im wondering about is can the timers be used to just switch to an event without recording the event. ie; dont have space on drive, just want to watch the program and use the timer for switch so one doesnt forget about it. think something like a menu when selecting the event to say yes to record or no just switch to event.. thanks and sorry if its been asked before..
abbe
On 1/29/06, Klaus Schmidinger Klaus.Schmidinger@cadsoft.de wrote:
Darren Salt wrote:
I demand that Laurence Abbott may or may not have written...
On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 14:00 +0100, Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
Since version 1.3.38 the Red button in the Schedule menu immediately creates the timer and marks the event with 'T'. So it can't happen any more that a timer is not confirmed.
I upraded from 1.3.36 to 1.3.40 last weekend and noticed this new
behaviour
last night. I like it a lot! Much faster than having to press OK after seeing the timer settings (which are generally how I want them anyway!).
It
just feels slicker now.
Just wait until you want to record a film on, say, ITV2. You know, one of those which is split in half so that they can stick in some other
programme,
the scheduled start and end times of which are works of fiction.
Can you give an example of this?
Klaus
vdr mailing list vdr@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/vdr
I demand that Klaus Schmidinger may or may not have written...
Darren Salt wrote:
I demand that Laurence Abbott may or may not have written...
On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 14:00 +0100, Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
Since version 1.3.38 the Red button in the Schedule menu immediately creates the timer and marks the event with 'T'. So it can't happen any more that a timer is not confirmed.
I upraded from 1.3.36 to 1.3.40 last weekend and noticed this new behaviour last night. I like it a lot! Much faster than having to press OK after seeing the timer settings (which are generally how I want them anyway!). It just feels slicker now.
Just wait until you want to record a film on, say, ITV2. You know, one of those which is split in half so that they can stick in some other programme, the scheduled start and end times of which are works of fiction.
Can you give an example of this?
Not *specifically* the works-of-fiction bit (I've observed this during live viewing, returning from doing something else while the other programme was supposedly still on only to find that the film had already been resumed), but I can provide plenty of examples of schedule data - this sort of interruption is *very* common; barely a film goes by without one on some channels.
However, the default timer margins should cover this.
And on some other channels (ITV1) they put more than one programme in the way - that's to do with a commitment to showing news at 22:30.
Two examples are attached.
On Sunday 29 January 2006 17:14, Darren Salt wrote:
I demand that Klaus Schmidinger may or may not have written...
Darren Salt wrote:
Just wait until you want to record a film on, say, ITV2. You know, one of those which is split in half so that they can stick in some other programme, the scheduled start and end times of which are works of fiction.
Yes! I've been caught out by this several times in the past. I'm now very wary of setting timers for films on ITV channels because nearly all of them have the news or something in the middle as a separate event. The same is true of BBC3 which shoves in a 60-second news bulletin in the middle of films so you only end up with the first half of the film...plus a few minutes of the second half from the additional 10 minutes you've given the timer!
I try to watch out for things like this now when I'm setting timers...
Can you give an example of this?
Not *specifically* the works-of-fiction bit (I've observed this during live viewing, returning from doing something else while the other programme was supposedly still on only to find that the film had already been resumed), but I can provide plenty of examples of schedule data - this sort of interruption is *very* common; barely a film goes by without one on some channels.
However, the default timer margins should cover this.
And on some other channels (ITV1) they put more than one programme in the way - that's to do with a commitment to showing news at 22:30.
Two examples are attached.
I'm not sure how checking for these 'mid-film interruptions' could be done reproducibly, apart from checking the following 2 or 3 events to see if they have the same title and extending the timer to cover both (much easier than as two separate timers!). This behaviour might also pick up several back-to-back episodes of a series, for example. I suppose the subtitles could be compared, too, although these don't always seem to be set properly for channels in the UK!
Maybe this could be Yet Another Confirm Message: "Do you wish timer to include event at 10:30 - 11:40 pm?".
Cheers,
Laz
Darren Salt wrote:
I demand that Klaus Schmidinger may or may not have written...
Darren Salt wrote:
I demand that Laurence Abbott may or may not have written...
On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 14:00 +0100, Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
Since version 1.3.38 the Red button in the Schedule menu immediately creates the timer and marks the event with 'T'. So it can't happen any more that a timer is not confirmed.
I upraded from 1.3.36 to 1.3.40 last weekend and noticed this new behaviour last night. I like it a lot! Much faster than having to press OK after seeing the timer settings (which are generally how I want them anyway!). It just feels slicker now.
Just wait until you want to record a film on, say, ITV2. You know, one of those which is split in half so that they can stick in some other programme, the scheduled start and end times of which are works of fiction.
Can you give an example of this?
Not *specifically* the works-of-fiction bit (I've observed this during live viewing, returning from doing something else while the other programme was supposedly still on only to find that the film had already been resumed), but I can provide plenty of examples of schedule data - this sort of interruption is *very* common; barely a film goes by without one on some channels.
However, the default timer margins should cover this.
And on some other channels (ITV1) they put more than one programme in the way
- that's to do with a commitment to showing news at 22:30.
Two examples are attached.
Well, I'm afraid this would result in an endless series of implementing yet another special case...
Brodcasts that are sliced into pieces should use the PDC descriptor to mark the parts that belong together. The PDC descriptor contains the "Programme Identification Label" (PIL), which VDR uses to implement the "VPS" functionality. Here in Germany some channels set the PIL to the same value in case a programme is interrupted by some news report or so. VDR can then stop recording when the first part ends, and resume recording when the second part starts. At least that's how it's supposed to work - it's hard to test that, because such broadcasts are rather rare...
Klaus
215-E 8790 1138827600 5400 50 12 215-T Two Week's Notice 215-S Network TV premiere starring Sandra Bullock & Hugh Grant. A woman finds herself attempting to foil one office romance while debating if she should take a chance on another in this romantic comedy.2002 215-X 1 03 eng 215-X 2 03 eng 215-X 2 40 eng 215-e 215-E 8791 1138833000 1200 50 12 215-T ITV News 215-S National & international news. 215-X 1 03 eng 215-X 2 03 eng 215-X 2 40 eng 215-e 215-E 8792 1138834200 240 50 12 215-T North East News 215-S Regional news update. 215-X 1 03 eng 215-X 2 03 eng 215-X 2 40 eng 215-e 215-E 8793 1138834440 120 50 12 215-T North East Weather 215-S Regional weather report. 215-X 1 03 eng 215-X 2 03 eng 215-X 2 40 eng 215-e 215-E 8794 1138834560 240 50 12 215-T ITV News 215-S National & international news. 215-X 1 03 eng 215-X 2 03 eng 215-X 2 40 eng 215-e 215-E 8795 1138834800 1500 50 12 215-T Two Week's Notice 215-S Network TV premiere starring Sandra Bullock & Hugh Grant. A woman finds herself attempting to foil one office romance while debating if she should take a chance on another in this romantic comedy.2002 215-X 1 03 eng 215-X 2 03 eng 215-X 2 40 eng 215-e
215-E 7787 1138581600 3300 50 1B 215-T Alien Resurrection 215-S Stars Sigourney Weaver & Winona Ryder. In the fourth installment of the sci-fi saga, Ripley returns from the dead when she's cloned by a crazed geneticist in order to retrieve her alien baby. 1997. 215-X 1 03 eng 215-X 2 03 eng 215-X 2 40 eng 215-e 215-E 7788 1138584900 300 50 1B 215-T Entertainment News Update 215-S 60 second round up of the latest celebrity news and gossip. 215-X 1 03 eng 215-X 2 03 eng 215-X 2 40 eng 215-e 215-E 7789 1138585200 3900 50 1B 215-T Alien Resurrection 215-S Stars Sigourney Weaver & Winona Ryder. In the fourth installment of the sci-fi saga, Ripley returns from the dead when she's cloned by a crazed geneticist in order to retrieve her alien baby. 1997. 215-X 1 03 eng 215-X 2 03 eng 215-X 2 40 eng
In 4DF0E0017A%linux@youmustbejoking.demon.co.uk, Darren Salt wrote:
I demand that Laurence Abbott may or may not have written...
On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 14:00 +0100, Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
Since version 1.3.38 the Red button in the Schedule menu immediately creates the timer and marks the event with 'T'. So it can't happen any more that a timer is not confirmed.
I upraded from 1.3.36 to 1.3.40 last weekend and noticed this new behaviour last night. I like it a lot! Much faster than having to press OK after seeing the timer settings (which are generally how I want them anyway!). It just feels slicker now.
Just wait until you want to record a film on, say, ITV2. You know, one of those which is split in half so that they can stick in some other programme, the scheduled start and end times of which are works of fiction.
I've found that a nuisance too. You have to get used to it, because in printed TV guides they often just list it as one programme with a note that there's a break for something else in the middle. I think it would be worthwhile for VDR to check whether the next programme but one after the one you're recording has the same name.
I demand that Tony Houghton may or may not have written...
In 4DF0E0017A%linux@youmustbejoking.demon.co.uk, Darren Salt wrote:
I demand that Laurence Abbott may or may not have written...
On Fri, 2006-01-27 at 14:00 +0100, Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
Since version 1.3.38 the Red button in the Schedule menu immediately creates the timer and marks the event with 'T'. [...]
I upraded from 1.3.36 to 1.3.40 last weekend and noticed this new behaviour last night. I like it a lot! [...]
Just wait until you want to record a film on, say, ITV2. You know, one of those which is split in half so that they can stick in some other programme, the scheduled start and end times of which are works of fiction.
I've found that a nuisance too. You have to get used to it, because in printed TV guides they often just list it as one programme with a note that there's a break for something else in the middle. I think it would be worthwhile for VDR to check whether the next programme but one after the one you're recording has the same name.
That won't always work - see ITV1, Wednesday, 9pm (which is one of the examples which I've posted). There are *four* intervening EPG entries.
I suggest looking for another programme which is scheduled to begin within 45 minutes of the end of the selected programme. (This would cover films being split by the 10pm news on BBC1 while not triggering false positives caused by quick repeats on ITV2.)
Obviously, where the gap between the two parts exceeds the sum of the timer margins, two timers should be created. An option to append the second recording to the first would seem to be reasonable.
On Sunday 29 Jan 2006 18:02, Tony Houghton wrote:
Just wait until you want to record a film on, say, ITV2. You know, one of those which is split in half so that they can stick in some other programme, the scheduled start and end times of which are works of fiction.
I've found that a nuisance too. You have to get used to it, because in printed TV guides they often just list it as one programme with a note that there's a break for something else in the middle. I think it would be worthwhile for VDR to check whether the next programme but one after the one you're recording has the same name.
That won't work where channels are showing back-to-back episodes of a series, eg the endless 'Friends', or the 'Dibnah' series on UK History.
I just tried to use vdradmin to find an actual example, but vdr 1.3.41 seems to have broken it again. More later...
I demand that Dave P may or may not have written...
On Sunday 29 Jan 2006 18:02, Tony Houghton wrote:
Just wait until you want to record a film on, say, ITV2. You know, one of those which is split in half so that they can stick in some other programme, the scheduled start and end times of which are works of fiction.
I've found that a nuisance too. You have to get used to it, because in printed TV guides they often just list it as one programme with a note that there's a break for something else in the middle. I think it would be worthwhile for VDR to check whether the next programme but one after the one you're recording has the same name.
That won't work where channels are showing back-to-back episodes of a series, eg the endless 'Friends', or the 'Dibnah' series on UK History.
See attached :-)
In 200601291927.41112.vdr@pickles.me.uk, Dave P wrote:
On Sunday 29 Jan 2006 18:02, Tony Houghton wrote:
Just wait until you want to record a film on, say, ITV2. You know, one of those which is split in half so that they can stick in some other programme, the scheduled start and end times of which are works of fiction.
I've found that a nuisance too. You have to get used to it, because in printed TV guides they often just list it as one programme with a note that there's a break for something else in the middle. I think it would be worthwhile for VDR to check whether the next programme but one after the one you're recording has the same name.
That won't work where channels are showing back-to-back episodes of a series, eg the endless 'Friends', or the 'Dibnah' series on UK History.
I'm not sure what Darren was getting at in his response to you, but his attachments have shown that in that case the programs tend have different descriptions, whereas "continued after the news" type things tend to have the same description for both parts.
Some sort of interaction would be nice, but it would have to be implemented separately in vdr and vdradmin (and any other front ends?).
I just tried to use vdradmin to find an actual example, but vdr 1.3.41 seems to have broken it again. More later...
ITYM "increased its brokenness".
On Sunday 29 Jan 2006 20:34, Tony Houghton wrote:
In 200601291927.41112.vdr@pickles.me.uk, Dave P wrote:
That won't work where channels are showing back-to-back episodes of a series, eg the endless 'Friends', or the 'Dibnah' series on UK History.
I'm not sure what Darren was getting at in his response to you, but his attachments have shown that in that case the programs tend have different descriptions, whereas "continued after the news" type things tend to have the same description for both parts.
Looking at the three occurrences this evening (ITV2, ITV3 and C5) that does appear to be the case but I wouldn't want to rely on it.
I just tried to use vdradmin to find an actual example, but vdr 1.3.41 seems to have broken it again. More later...
ITYM "increased its brokenness".
Sorry false alarm. I rebooted the server today and it restarted the original vdradmin daemon not my patched one.
Klaus Schmidinger wrote:
Since version 1.3.38 the Red button in the Schedule menu immediately creates the timer and marks the event with 'T'. So it can't happen any more that a timer is not confirmed.
OK. I didn't noticed that because I use epgsearch instead of the build in epg. Then this should go to the epgsearch developer Christian Wieniger. Maybe he can 'copy' the above mentioned behaviour into epgsearch.
Regards Peter
-
abbe normal -
Darren Salt -
Dave P -
Klaus Schmidinger -
Laurence Abbott -
Laz
-
Peter Juszack -
Tony Houghton